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ful. I think they have to be expanded, so let me say I think there is an awareness and I hope, as I am sure that I think all of the members of the Commission hope, that there becomes an awareness of the entire problem which may have been thought to be really very provincial and didn't affect me because I didn't live in a certain city, from some of the letters I have received from people throughout the Nation. They have indicated their awareness now, they were slightly aware, but now are more deeply concerned.

I am sure as people get concerned they will insist on joining in and insist on positive action rather than planning.

Senator KENNEDY of New York. I am glad to hear you say that. I am more pessimistic and not as encouraged as you are.

You mentioned the field of education. I just don't see that in the field of education, at least in the ghetto schools that I have visited, that we are making that kind of progress, that there is that kind of innovation.

What concerns me is that we pay attention now to the money that we have been spending—the fact we are spending much more money on manpower training programs, much more in the field of education, in all of these areas than we did some time before.

The fact is also, as we look across the century, that the situation is getting worse rather than better. People are feeling more bitter, more disillusioned than they did a decade or 5 or 6 or 7 years ago.

Governor KERNER. Senator, I have had my frustrations in the area of education, too. I have done some teaching myself, on occasion. But you can't tell a teacher anything if you are not a teacher, unfortunately. It's almost an area that they have taken unto themselves, and I have been critical of the teaching profession. I have been critical of teaching courses.

Senator CLARK. Of course, we lawyers are almost as bad.

Governor KERNER. Yes, as a matter of fact, we even have a lobby behind us to prevent people from invading our area, as do the doctors, you see. Certainly I think more people are beginning to look at themselves a little bit in the teaching process. I didn't say great numbers, but

Senator KENNEDY of New York. This subcommittee just came back from Kentucky, where we talked about jobs and about the influx from the rural areas into the urban areas of the country, where rural residents don't find jobs or housing.

In eastern Kentucky we had a great deal of attention on the poverty program, and public concern about what is happening in Appalachia. Yet before our committee there wasn't one witness who appeared who had been trained in any of our job programs or knew anyone else who had been trained in any of our job training programs, who had ever received a job there.

I am not saying there are no such people, but in the hollows of eastern Kentucky, where great unemployment exists and where a great feeling of hopelessness and despair exists, that has not been done.

So the result is that a high percentage of people leave every year, most of whom have been going to Chicago, to Cincinnati, and other eastern cities.

We spend all of this money in all of these fields, in programs which I have supported, in education, in job training, in employment, on

our young people between the ages of 16 and 25, on housing, yet in all of these matters we are not really moving ahead. We are moving backward. I would like to have your judgment on that and what is going to reverse it.

Governor KERNER. Senator, let me say this. I know you have been personally concerned about these problems more than the fellow on the street. This has been a great concern of yours, I know. We are hopeful that this report will make more concerned people. If there are more concerned people, positive action will take place.

Certainly, if not, I predict what we stated in this report will take place.

Senator KENNEDY of New York. What do you see will happen after this report? Has there been a reaction from the man in the street? Specifically, in the executive branch of the Government, which is going to have a major responsibility in this field, has there been a reaction from the executive branch of the Government indicating that the recommendations you made are going to be recommended in Congress?

Governor KERNER. There has been a reaction in the Illinois executive branch.

Senator KENNEDY of New York. You mean the State?
Governor KERNER. Yes.

Senator KENNEDY of New York. You have outlined a series of actions for the Federal Government, action required by the States, and by the cities far more than they have done in the past, in reorganizing their programs. It is not just a question of waiting for money from the Federal Government. But there also has to be something from the Federal Government as well.

Governor KERNER. I believe if I remember the programs, as presented by President Johnson, did increase, certain of these programs.

Senator KENNEDY of New York. Do you think that this is satisfactory then?

Governor KERNER. I don't know that it is satisfactory at this point. I don't know. We are hopeful that they will be.

Senator KENNEDY of New York. Do you think that what we are doing at the moment is satisfactory?

Governor KERNER. Apparently it is not completely satisfactorily, but think as Senator Clark and Senator Prouty indicated, certainly review of programs and coordination, elimination of overlap, the more efficient use of moneys because of past experience will have a greater impact in my opinion.

Senator KENNEDY of New York. As I say-I go back to the point that I made. I think if we enact these programs and spend this money and the situation gets gradually worse, I don't see how we can reach the conclusion that continuing those programs at the same funding level, is going to improve the situation.

Governor KERNER. As I say, that is a responsibility we realize. I realize that, as it is on my mine in my own position in my State, but I cannot make these decisions certainly for Congress nor the Executive at the Federal level. I will do what I can at my position. The Commission was given a job to do, to look into the matter, what caused the riots? Why? What happened? What do you recommend to overcome them?

And from this point on we hope that all people, not in the Government sector alone, but the private sector and the citizen will become involved.

Senator KENNEDY of New York. Here, Governor, you say in support of the Employment Act of 1946 :

The l'nited States had a national goal of useful jobs at a reasonable wage for all who wished to work. Federal expenditures for manpower development and training have increased from less than $60 million in 1953 to $1.6 billion in 1968. The Federal Government proposes an increase in 1969 to provide services for more than 1.3 million men and women.

Governor KERNER. That is what we found.

Senator KENNEDY of New York. As I say, we went through all of these disorders last summer, and I think you suggested some things that are terribly, terribly important, but I question whether—there is a sense not only of the priorities, but of the emergency that is involved.

Governor KERNER. Let me say all we members of the Commission realize its urgency, but I am in no position to effectuate it except at my individual level. I have no perfect solution. We as Commissioners do not think, certainly, that we are the initiators of all programs. We have done the best we can in the time that we had available.

Senator KENNEDY of New York. Thank you, Governor. Governor KERNER. Thank you, Senator. Senator Clark. Governor, we ducked all morning, and your Commission, for reasons which I thoroughly understand, did not face up to the ultimate question : How much are your recommendations going to cost and where are we going to get the money? If you don't want to answer that, feel free not to.

Governor KERNER. I will be happy to answer your question. It is a simple and logical reason in my mind. No. 1, we made a series of recommendations. We made recommendations in one category that were experimental. What they will cost will depend upon how far, how much of a program you wish to go into.

Would it be one experimental program of a type or five or 10 or 100? How many individuals involved? We certainly did not have anyone on our Commission who could cost this on an individual basis.

We have another category of recommendations there that really suggest that presently appropriated moneys be used in a slightly different fashion. This certainly is not new money.

Then we come to what are considered new programs and really they are not new, they are not new and ideawise or ideologically, but we look, for instance, in the housing area, the rental area, the supplemental income area.

These are areas certainly we could not process. It would depend upon what the Senate wanted to do, what the adminstration wanted to do, and many of those programs, by the way we know are overlapping. There is a little different degree and not all of those programs would be adopted; others maybe would.

Senator CLARK. Governor, we have had to price out to some extent the cost of the bill that you are testifying on. It runs into a good many billions of dollars. As a practical politician at least I think I am a practical politician-we will find out next November whether I am

or not. It seems to me there is only one place to get it. This is this swollen military budget of $80 billion.

These programs are not going to be funded or solved so long as we are trying to be policemen of the world and spending $80 billion on a military appropriation. I make that statement with some reluctance and I don't ask you to join in it because you have a different responsibility and different interests than I do.

I wanted to state on the first day of these hearings to the first witness, that we cannot run away from the dollar sign on these programs and I don't know where in the world else we are going to get it except from the military budget. In my opinion, I do not believe that the American people are prepared to raise taxes back to the level they were. I don't think they are going to be willing to do it and I don't think the House Ways and Means Committee is going to ask them to do it. I don't think the Senate is going to ask them to do it and I'm sure the President isn't going to ask them to do it, and so there's only one place, and that's the military budget. And as of right now, I see no consensus in the country that we are going to be able to do that.

I am as pessimistic as Senator Kennedy is that we are going to get these. You don't have to comment.

Governor KERNER. I would like to comment.

Our report does comment on what we think ought to be done. Of course, we are only 11 people

Senátor CLARK. Eleven pretty smart people, shall we say.

Governor KERNER. Only four of our members will be asked to vote upon this. I will not be, but we all agree unanimously that this program needed money and could not be found anywhere else, it ought to be in new taxes. We discussed the possibility of surtax, but we felt that as a Commission we should not really presume on ourselves the authority that the Senate, the House of Representatives and the President has as its responsibility, but we recommend new taxes and we include it in there, a surcharge if that is the way to do it.

Senator CLARK. Thank you very much, Governor, we were happy to have you with us. It has been an illuminating experience.

Our next witness is our distinguished colleague, the Honorable Fred Harris. We are apologetic for having kept you waiting, Senator. We know you have a fine presentation. I will ask that the entire text of your testimony be put in full in the record and I will leave it to you to summarize any way you desire. STATEMENT OF HON. FRED R. HARRIS, A U.S. SENATOR FROM THE

STATE OF OKLAHOMA Senator HARRIS. Since my text is slightly different from yours, I believe I'll just read my statement.

First let me say that I am pleased to have this opportunity to support the passage of the Emergency Employment and Training Act, of which I am a cosponsor. I am happy to add my testimony to that of my colleagues who served with me on the President's National Advisory Commission on Civil Disorders. I want to say at the outset that the Commission felt that tremendously expanded employment and job-training opportunities were the single most important rec

ommendation we could make toward the solution of the problems of the ghetto which underlie riots.

The Commission found that l'nemployment and underemployment are among the persistent and serious grievances of disadvantaged minorities. The pervasive effect of these conditions on the racial ghetto is inextricably linked to the problem of civil disorder.

Of a total of 2 million unemployed persons and some 10 million underemployed persons in the Nation presently, the most difficult to reach and bring into the main current of the American economy are 500,000 hard-core unemployed who, in the Commission's words

live within the central cities, lack basic education, work not at all or only from time to time, and are unable to cope with the problems of holding and performing a job. A substantial part of this group is Negro, male, and between the ages of approximately 18 and 25.

The Commission cited a 1966 Labor Department study showing that while the nationwide unemployment rate was 3.8 percent, the unemployment rate among 16- to 19-year-old nonwhite males in the major ghettos was 26.5 percent, and among 16- to 24-year-old nonwhite males, 15.9 percent.

Senator KENNEDY of New York. Could I interrupt for clarification on this? The Labor Statistics also said that between a third and fifth of the young men in the ghetto are missing from all statistics. Does that mean that you would add a third to that?

Senator HARRIS. The Commission itself tried to take that into account. These figures, as I said, were from a 1966 Department of Labor study, and I am sure they understate the problem because so many of the unemployed just can't be found. Those figures also exclude "underemployed" people, or those who work but don't earn enough to raise themselves out of poverty.

Senator KENNEDY of New York. So it is possible that the figures are considerably higher than that?

Senator HARRIS. That's right, I think it's not only possible but true that the actual figures are much higher. And in addition, I think those percentages are getting worse. Our studies showed that, for example, while 31 percent of the people in the Hough section of Cleveland were poor in 1961, by 1965 that proportion had risen to 39 percent. We found that sort of increase in poverty common in the Negro ghettos around the country. As you might expect, to cite Hough again, while the proportion of poor families was rising, the average family income was going down. In 1961 it was $4,700 a year in Hough but by 1965 it had dropped to $4,000 per year.

Senator KENNEDY of New York. Thank you.

Senator PROUTY. Senator, you give the figures for the nonwhite males in the 16 to 19 and the 16- to 24-year-old age groups. Do you have those for the white males?

Senator HARRIS. I don't have them, but I could furnish them to you or you probably would find that you have the Department of Labor studies from which they came in your files already.

Senator PROUTY. They are very high, too, as I understand it.

Senator CLARK. Senator, when you gave those Cleveland figures, is it true as I suspect, but did not know, that the families are large. Do you break it down on a percentage basis.

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