Senator MURPHY. I would like to congratulate you, Governer Kerner, on the job that you have done. I think your testimony today has been one of the most interesting given at hearings I have been privileged to attend.

Governor KERNER. Thank you, Senator.

May I say I think we had a wonderful group of people on the Commission. I think the President showed excellent judgment in getting a cross section of the United States on the Commission. Our staff was excellent.

Senator CLARK. And, Governor, they are not confined as Mr. Kraft alleges, to highly educated, upper income America, are they? Governer KERNER. Hardly, hardly.

May I say just one thing that you had reference to, Senator Clark, and then I will conclude.

Transportation costs I mentioned in here are terribly important. Senator MURPHY. I wish you would mention that to the Secretary of Transportation. I have been trying to get some funds that were turned back and refused in San Francisco to build a road from the center of Watts to the center of the job area out by the airport, which we need very badly. So if you happen to bump into him in your travels here, give him a nudge.

Governor KERNER. I missed him in Pittsburgh yesterday and I congratulate him on being able to run the Department without funds. Senator CLARK. Senator Robert Kennedy.

Senator KENNEDY of New York. First, let me congratulate you, Governor, on your work and leadership on the Commission. I think it is one of the most important studies made in the history of the country. I want to add my words of congratulations to the many others that have come to your direction.

Why is it that despite the concern that people have about these problems and despite the fact that we passed legislation dealing with many of these difficulties in education, manpower training, and other fields, but still the situation seems to be getting worse rather than better?

Governor KERNER. Well, economically for these people it's getting worse because the area in which the unskilled in the past have had an opportunity to make a living is becoming more limited and increasing in opportunity. I think also by way of education-and certainly there has been a benefit and increase in education generally-I think those in the have-not area are becoming more aware of the opportunity that they can have if they had the opportunity, and the frustration that is being denied them because of racism is raising higher emotions within them.

Certainly I think certain of the social service work that has been done has been great and it has been needed and it does show a concern, but also it makes the people more alert of what opportunities there are in this great Nation of ours.

Senator KENNEDY of New York. The report also indicated in the field of education that the situation is becoming more serious rather than the problem being alleviated.

Governor KERNER. Well, there seems to be evidence on that side in education. We are not making the progress we should.

Senator KENNEDY of New York. What's discouraging is the fact that despite our concern, despite the public pronouncements and preachings by all of us about this problem, we do not seem to be making progress and do not seem to be moving ahead.

Governor KERNER. I thought an article written by the superintendent of schools of Elk Grove Village in one of the Chicago newspapers. he opened his statement by saying that teachers must understand that they are there to teach youngsters, and then began to criticize the educational system and we find this possibly true, that perhaps some of the teachers, the best trained teachers, friends, through seniority systems are the best equipped actually to go into the ghetto area. But because of seniority, they make their choice and that's the last place that they would go, and it's the young, new teacher that comes in just out of school and may have the technical background, but not the actual practical experience and they are the ones that end up in the low-income areas and they are the least prepared to handle the personal problems that are involved as well as the educational ones, and apparently there is great frustration there-passing kids through the grades.

Senator KENNEDY of New York. The record of public education for ghetto children is growing worse?

Governor KERNER. That's right.

Senator KENNEDY of New York. You talk here at the beginning of the report of what is necessary-whether to mount programs on a scale equal to the dimensions of the problems, to mount those for highimpact need in the future in order to close gap and to undertake new initiatives and experiments. These programs will require unprecedented levels of funding and performance.

Do you see, Governor, and Mr. Chairman, that we are taking steps to move in these directions that you outline as being so necessary?

Governor KERNER. Yes; I think we are, but I don't think we are in as large enough area as we should. I think we are not using the talents of many young people who I think would like to be involved in this on a voluntary basis, who are equipped, shall I say, by their own educational backgrounds. They are not certificated, they are not graduates of a school of education, but I think that many of these young volunteers can go further into the ghetto area on a person-to-person basis on the whole and help. This I think will encourage and will relieve many of the problems and the burdens that the paid teacher has to face and becomes frustrated with every day.

Senator KENNEDY of New York. What I am referring to is the sug gestion in the report as to what is necessary, as to whether we are moving in these fields-whether you think there are indications that we are moving in the fields of education and job training, in housing, recreation, all of the areas you have outlined, in the relationship between the police and the people living in these ghettos, and whether you feel that since your report or since the riots of last summer the country has bound its wounds and is beginning to move in the directions which you outlined before.

Governor KERNER. Actually in the field of education, I think, of course there has been some awareness of this on a smaller scale, not nationally as yet, and some of these experimental programs that have been done in areas where they are aware have proved very success

ful. I think they have to be expanded, so let me say I think there is an awareness and I hope, as I am sure that I think all of the members of the Commission hope, that there becomes an awareness of the entire problem which may have been thought to be really very provincial and didn't affect me because I didn't live in a certain city, from some of the letters I have received from people throughout the Nation. They have indicated their awareness now, they were slightly aware, but now are more deeply concerned.

I am sure as people get concerned they will insist on joining in and insist on positive action rather than planning.

Senator KENNEDY of New York. I am glad to hear you say that. I am more pessimistic and not as encouraged as you are.

You mentioned the field of education. I just don't see that in the field of education, at least in the ghetto schools that I have visited, that we are making that kind of progress, that there is that kind of innovation.

What concerns me is that we pay attention now to the money that we have been spending the fact we are spending much more money on inanpower training programs, much more in the field of education, in all of these areas than we did some time before.

The fact is also, as we look across the century, that the situation is getting worse rather than better. People are feeling more bitter, more disillusioned than they did a decade or 5 or 6 or 7 years ago. Governor KERNER. Senator, I have had my frustrations in the area of education, too. I have done some teaching myself, on occasion. But you can't tell a teacher anything if you are not a teacher, unfortunately. It's almost an area that they have taken unto themselves, and I have been critical of the teaching profession. I have been critical of teaching courses.

Senator CLARK. Of course, we lawyers are almost as bad.

Governor KERNER. Yes, as a matter of fact, we even have a lobby behind us to prevent people from invading our area, as do the doctors, you see. Certainly I think more people are beginning to look at themselves a little bit in the teaching process. I didn't say great numbers, but

Senator KENNEDY of New York. This subcommittee just came back from Kentucky, where we talked about jobs and about the influx from the rural areas into the urban areas of the country, where rural residents don't find jobs or housing.

In eastern Kentucky we had a great deal of attention on the poverty program, and public concern about what is happening in Appalachia. Yet before our committee there wasn't one witness who appeared who had been trained in any of our job programs or knew anyone else who had been trained in any of our job training programs, who had ever received a job there.

I am not saying there are no such people, but in the hollows of eastern Kentucky, where great unemployment exists and where a great feeling of hopelessness and despair exists, that has not been done.

So the result is that a high percentage of people leave every year, most of whom have been going to Chicago, to Cincinnati, and other eastern cities.

We spend all of this money in all of these fields, in programs which I have supported, in education, in job training, in employment, on

our young people between the ages of 16 and 25, on housing, yet in all of these matters we are not really moving ahead. We are moving backward. I would like to have your judgment on that and what is going to reverse it.

Governor KERNER. Senator, let me say this. I know you have been personally concerned about these problems more than the fellow on the street. This has been a great concern of yours, I know. We are hopeful that this report will make more concerned people. If there are more concerned people, positive action will take place.

Certainly, if not, I predict what we stated in this report will take place.

Senator KENNEDY of New York. What do you see will happen after this report? Has there been a reaction from the man in the street? Specifically, in the executive branch of the Government, which is going to have a major responsibility in this field, has there been a reaction from the executive branch of the Government indicating that the recommendations you made are going to be recommended in Congress?

Governor KERNER. There has been a reaction in the Illinois executive branch.

Senator KENNEDY of New York. You mean the State?

Governor KERNER. Yes.

Senator KENNEDY of New York. You have outlined a series of actions for the Federal Government, action required by the States, and by the cities far more than they have done in the past, in reorganizing their programs. It is not just a question of waiting for money from the Federal Government. But there also has to be something from the Federal Government as well.

Governor KERNER. I believe if I remember the programs, as presented by President Johnson, did increase, certain of these programs. Senator KENNEDY of New York. Do you think that this is satisfactory then?

Governor KERNER. I don't know that it is satisfactory at this point. I don't know. We are hopeful that they will be.

Senator KENNEDY of New York. Do you think that what we are doing at the moment is satisfactory?

Governor KERNER. Apparently it is not completely satisfactorily, but I think as Senator Clark and Senator Prouty indicated, certainly review of programs and coordination, elimination of overlap, the more efficient use of moneys because of past experience will have a greater impact in my opinion.

Senator KENNEDY of New York. As I say-I go back to the point that I made. I think if we enact these programs and spend this money and the situation gets gradually worse, I don't see how we can reach the conclusion that continuing those programs at the same funding level, is going to improve the situation.

Governor KERNER. As I say, that is a responsibility we realize. I realize that, as it is on my mine in my own position in my State, but I cannot make these decisions certainly for Congress nor the Executive at the Federal level. I will do what I can at my position. The Commission was given a job to do, to look into the matter, what caused the riots? Why? What happened? What do you recommend to overcome them?

And from this point on we hope that all people, not in the Government sector alone, but the private sector and the citizen will become involved.

Senator KENNEDY of New York. Here, Governor, you say in support of the Employment Act of 1946:

The United States had a national goal of useful jobs at a reasonable wage for all who wished to work. Federal expenditures for manpower development and training have increased from less than $60 million in 1953 to $1.6 billion in 1968. The Federal Government proposes an increase in 1969 to provide services for more than 1.3 million men and women.

Governor KERNER. That is what we found.

Senator KENNEDY of New York. As I say, we went through all of these disorders last summer, and I think you suggested some things that are terribly, terribly important, but I question whether there is a sense not only of the priorities, but of the emergency that is involved.

Governor KERNER. Let me say all we members of the Commission realize its urgency, but I am in no position to effectuate it except at my individual level. I have no perfect solution. We as Commissioners do not think, certainly, that we are the initiators of all programs. We have done the best we can in the time that we had available.

Senator KENNEDY of New York. Thank you, Governor.
Governor KERNER. Thank you, Senator.

Senator CLARK. Governor, we ducked all morning, and your Commission, for reasons which I thoroughly understand, did not face up to the ultimate question: How much are your recommendations going to cost and where are we going to get the money? If you don't want to answer that, feel free not to.

Governor KERNER. I will be happy to answer your question. It is a simple and logical reason in my mind. No. 1, we made a series of recommendations. We made recommendations in one category that were experimental. What they will cost will depend upon how far, how much of a program you wish to go into.

Would it be one experimental program of a type or five or 10 or 100? How many individuals involved? We certainly did not have anyone

on our Commission who could cost this on an individual basis.

We have another category of recommendations there that really suggest that presently appropriated moneys be used in a slightly different fashion. This certainly is not new money.

Then we come to what are considered new programs and really they are not new, they are not new and ideawise or ideologically, but we look, for instance, in the housing area, the rental area, the supplemental income area.

These are areas certainly we could not process. It would depend upon what the Senate wanted to do, what the adminstration wanted to do, and many of those programs, by the way we know are overlapping. There is a little different degree and not all of those programs would be adopted; others maybe would.

Senator CLARK. Governor, we have had to price out to some extent the cost of the bill that you are testifying on. It runs into a good many billions of dollars. As a practical politician at least I think I am a practical politician-we will find out next November whether I am