The CHAIRMAN. I shall have to insist that the witnesses and the members of the committee confine themselves to the discussion of this bill; because if we open up this matter of the civil service, we will take a great deal of time and accomplish nothing.

Mr. MORGAN. I shall be glad to answer your question at another time

The CHAIRMAN (interposing). Pardon me, until I finish. We have a civil-service committee, or a committee that handles civil-service matters, and this committee does not, except as they come under consideration in connection with the appointment of these various census takers. What postmasters have to do with this bill I can not conceive.

Mr. MOORMAN. Civil service and Executive orders have had a good deal to do with it judging from the discussion which has gone on here this morning.

The CHAIRMAN. I have allowed the discussion to go on; but I think it ought to be stopped.

Mr. MOORMAN. Right; but I desire to take just a minute to say this: What I desire to ask about is this: There is a postmaster in my district who took the examination and received the highest percentage. Nobody else was eligible under the examination. They declined to give him the appointment. They ordered another examination. He was the high man the second time, and they refused to give him the appointment. And I wanted to ask a few questions in connection with that of these gentlemen.

The CHAIRMAN. I think you can ascertain that by application to the Civil Service Commission or the Post Office Department.

Mr. MOORMAN. In order that my attitude may not be misunderstood, I will say that I am absolutely for civil service. But I am not in favor of putting in this bill, or any other bill, anything about a preference for veterans if it does not mean that the indicated preference is going to be given to the indicated persons or class. That is my attitude about the proposition. And I am supporting the Civil Service Commission in my real attitude on the subject. But I do not believe that the situation which is admitted to exist in Kentucky, where the Republican County Chairman and committees govern those things is right and I can show you the letters that admit this-I do not think that such a situation ought to prevail, either in justice to civil service or in justice to my constituency.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, we will proceed with the consideration of this bill.

Mr. RANKIN. So far as the civil service is concerned-and I say this with all due deference-so far as the civil service is concerned in connection with appointments in my territory, it is a farce.

Mr. MORGAN. I quite agree with you. If you mean with regard to postmasterships.

Mr. RANKIN. I certainly do.

Mr. MORGAN. I quite agree with you, not only as to that district, but every other district in the presidential class.

The CHAIRMAN. I must insist that our discussion be confined to the application of this bill.

Mr. RANKIN. I thought the matter rather touched upon the provisions of this bill.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, we got away from that. Now, have you anything further to say on that subject?

Mr. MORGAN. No.

The CHAIRMAN. Then we will hear from Dr. Hill.

STATEMENT OF MR. JOSEPH A. HILL, ASSISTANT TO THE DIRECTOR, BUREAU OF THE CENSUS-Resumed

Dr. HILL. I believe, Mr. Chairman, in reading the bill (H. R. 393) we had reached page 3 and had just reached the paragraph about the appointment of special agents and supervisors.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes; we had just reached the paragraph beginning in line 11, page 3.

Dr. HILL. That provides:

That special agents, supervisors, supervisors' clerks, enumerators, and interpreters may be appointed by the Director of the Census to carry out the provisions of this act and of the act to provide for a permanent Census Office, approved March 6, 1902, and acts amendatory thereof or supplemental thereto, such appointments to be made without reference to the civil service or the classification acts.

I explained that that was substantially the same provision that we had before. Then it goes on:

The Director of the Census may delegate to the supervisors authority to appoint enumerators. The enlisted men and officers of the Army, Navy, and Marine Corps may be appointed and compensated for the enumeration of Army, Navy, Marine and other military posts. The special agents, supervisors, supervisors' clerks, enumerators, and interpreters thus appointed shall receive compensation at per diem or piece-price rates to be fixed by the Director of the Census: Provided, That special agents appointed at a per diem rate shall not be paid in excess of $8 per diem except as hereinafter provided; and that the compensation on a piece-price basis may be fixed without limitation as to the amount earned per diem: Provided further, That during the decennial census period the Director of the Census may fix the compensation of not to exceed twenty-five special agents at an amount not to exceed $12 per diem:

Those two provisions are also substantially the same.

Mr. HIRSCH. The amount of compensation has been changed?
Doctor HILL. Yes; the maximum was $8 before.

The CHAIRMAN. And it is $12 now?

Doctor HILL. That provides now for twenty-five special agents at not exceeding $12. Then it provides:

Provided further, That permanent employees of the Census Office and special agents may be detailed, when necessary, to act as supervisors or enumerators, such permanent employees and special agents to have like authority with and perform the same duties as the supervisors or enumerators in respect to the subjects committed to them under this act.

The CHAIRMAN. We will pause there and discuss this provision. The members of the committee may desire to ask questions about it. Mr. RANKIN. Right there is one of the stumbling blocks in the last census; that is, in regard to the compensation for the enumerators. Now, that is the trouble that you had in the census of 1920. The CHAIRMAN. They did not pay them enough?

Mr. RANKIN. They did not pay them enough; that is correct, is it not?

Mr. HIRSCH. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, what we are after is to get a correct census of the United States and to count everybody. Under this provision-I

had not really read that provision, and I was waiting for you to cover it. But under this provision you do not fix the per diem or pay of the enumerators, do you?

Doctor HILL. No, it does not. That is left to the discretion of the director.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, was that done before?

Doctor HILL. No, it was not. We had fixed limits.

And that

was one trouble, that the maximum limit was too low before; that made it difficult to get adequately qualified men.

The CHAIRMAN. What basis was it on before?

Doctor. HILL. It was on the name basis 4 cents a name.

Mr. RANKIN. It was on the basis of 4 cents a name; and the average enumerator in the rural districts could not make expenseswhen prices were at their peak, in 1920.

Mr. THURSTON. Let me ask you a question there: Does the enumerator in the country districts, who is obliged to cover a large area, receive no more per capita than the enumerator in the city where the population is congested?

Doctor HILL. The maximum was the same. Of course, the idea was that we would not always give the maximum. But in the end we had to do that in every case. But the rural enumerator gets also the payment for the farms that the city enumerator would not get. Mr. THURSTON. What is the average per capita of that additional compensation?

Doctor HILL. For a farm?

Mr. THURSTON. No; per capita.

The CHAIRMAN. Per day?

Mr. THURSTON. Well, should there not be an additional compensation to an enumerator who has to cover a large area, with bad roads frequently, than to a person who works in a city district, where he does not have to hire a conveyance?

Doctor HILL. I should think those considerations should be taken into account.

Mr. THURSTON. And your Bureau would take that into consideration in fixing the compensation, would it?

Doctor HILL. I think we would have to do so.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. It is just like in the Postal Service, where they pay the carrier on a mileage basis. I have in my congressional district both city and country districts; and I also believe that in the country districts the enumerators are not paid enough. There ought to be a differential there, because of the area covered and the difference in population; the more densely a section of country is populated the easier it is to fill up the lists.

Mr. THURSTON. Well, you feel that that latitude or descretion. should be placed in the Census Bureau, do you?

Doctor HILL. It seems so to us. We are making a careful study of all the districts in the United States at this time to fix compensation, so that one enumerator upon a per diem basis will get the same remuneration as another; that requires a great deal of study.

Mr. THURSTON. And not necessarily on the basis of the persons enumerated?

Doctor HILL. No; but on the basis of what he earns.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, here is one trouble about the per diem basis: You take an enumerator who is one thousand miles from the capital, and put him on a per diem basis; and I am afraid that he would be more likely to skip some places, or fail to visit the inconvenient places than he would if put on a per capita basis?

Doctor HILL. I did not make myself clear. I did not mean that we were thinking of putting them on a per diem basis; but we are thinking of fixing the per capita basis so they would earn about the same rate per day.

Mr. RANKIN. But you are speaking of putting them on a per capita basis?

Doctor HILL. Yes; but we are trying to fix it so that the enumerators will earn the same amount in all districts.

Mr. RANKIN. And so that they can afford to work for the compensation allowed?

Doctor HILL. Yes; that is it.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you formed any opinion as to what the per diem compensation might be for enumerators?

Mr. RANKIN. You mean per capita?

Mr. GOSNELL. Mr. Chairman, I think I can clarify that point point shomewhat by giving an illustration of the rates of compensation at the recent census of agriculture. Our rates varied from 25 cents a farm to $5 a farm. We were operating under a law which stated no minimum compensation and no maximum compensation, and in some districts, such as districts in Arizona, we paid the enumerator $5 a farm and in a great many districts in the South we paid them 25 cents each

The CHAIRMAN. Per farm?

Mr. GOSNELL. Per farm; yes, sir. So that the compensation under this bill would be fixed by the directors, taking those unusual conditions into consideration. And in that way, answering the point raised by Mr. Rankin, we would not employ enumerators on a per diem basis. We find in employing enumerators on a per diem basis that they are not nearly as accurate, as Mr. Rankin has suggested, in making enumeration of farms; if they got no farm at all during a day they would get the compensation just the same. But if you put them on a piece-price basis they would get no compensation whatever. The CHAIRMAN. Unless they do the work?

Mr. GOSNELL. Unless they do the work.

The CHAIRMAN. I am curious to know about this: How much, on the average, would an enumerator earn? Whether it be by the day of service or the week, what would be the average?

Mr. THURSTON. Would you separate that into the average where an enumerator is required to furnish transportation, and an average where that is not required?

The CHAIRMAN. I am simply trying to ascertain how much a man appointed enumerator could look forward to receiving for his work. Mr. GOSNELL. In the urban districts I believe the average rate of compensation at the last census was approximately $5 per day. Doctor HILL. Is that 1920?

Mr. GOSNELL. That is 1920.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. Is that net, with no traveling expenses?

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Mr. GOSNELL. That is in the city, in the urban districts. In the rural districts the average compensation ran from $2.50 to $8 per day. That included, of course, expenses.

Mr. RANKIN. How do you make it more in the rural districts than in the city districts on the same per capita basis?

Mr. GOSNELL. Because of the unusual provisions of the law. The law specified at the last census three rates of pay. One was 3 cents a name and 20 cents a farm. One was 4 cents a name and 30 cents a farm. So the man who received 4 cents a name and 30 cents a farm, particularly in the southern districts, where there are so many tenant farmers (and each farm with a tenant cultivating it is considered a separate farm) would be able to receive a higher rate of compensation than in the section where there were independently owned farms and no tenant farms, and not so many inhabitants in a given area. In other words, the distances in some sections of the country, particularly in the Southwest, from one farm to another are so much greater than they are in other territory that the rate of compensation was spread out.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, if this bill should be passed in this form, it is the intention of the bureau, is it, to use the same plan, to pay the urban enumerators and the rural enumerators the same amount per capita, and then allow the rural enumerator so much extra for each farm? Is that the plan?

Mr. GOSNELL. No.

Mr. RANKIN. What is the plan?

Mr. GOSNELL. We are right now making a special study of each county throughout the United States, including the urban districts as one study and the rural districts as another. And we are taking into consideration the unusual condition in each county. For instance, in one county there would be good roads, and in another poor roads; in one county there would be 3 farms per square mile, and in another 10 farms per square mile. So we are arranging the compensation on that basis, taking into consideration those unusual conditions.

The CHAIRMAN. Are the expenses of these various agents-I am speaking of the enumerators up and down the list-are their expenses defrayed by themselves, or is there an allowance made for expenses?

Mr. GOSNELL. The expenses are defrayed by themselves; and we increase the rate of compensation in order to take care of them. The CHAIRMAN. So that where they have to use an automobile, for example, you try to cover that?

Mr. GOSNELL. Yes. We are preparing in the bureau a statement of the average rate of compensation for each county in the United States. That, of course, will be submitted to the supervisor of each district. He will be authorized to pay a lower rate than the average rate that we have fixed for the county in a section of country that is thickly inhabited, and where there are good roads and the enumeration is comparatively easy; and he will be allowed to pay a higher rate of compensation in a section of country where it is more difficult to enumerate.

Mr. MOORMAN. My understanding is that the bill in its present form will permit you to equalize this matter to suit your purposes? Mr. GOSNELL. Yes; and the last bill did not permit that.