EXHIBIT B

Estimated expenses for field work in taking the fifteenth census of agriculture and

268,000.00

268,000.00

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. Mr. Chairman, may I ask how this matter would be viewed by the Director of the Budget? Has this been discussed with the Director of the Budget?

Mr. GOSNELL. No; it has not in any manner whatever.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. So we are proceeding to legislate upon a matter involving some $30,000,000 or more; thirty-five million dollars or maybe forty, without having taken it up with the Director of the Budget.

Mr. RANKIN. This is not only authorized by law, but authorized by the Constitution, and I think that where there is any conflict between the Director of the Budget and the Constitution that the Constitution will prevail.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. Every act, may I say, of Congress is according to the Constitution.

Mr. RANKIN. Not always.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. Well, it is until the Supreme Court overrules it; but I just want to know as a preliminary proposition what the situation is. Here, the Secretary of Commerce has to consider the appropriation that he is going to ask for, for the matter naturally relates to his department. I am just wondering what the bureau, or the Director of the Budget, is going to say about it. He might say, "Here you are increasing this amount. You are asking for more than you expended in 1920."

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Jacobstein, let me explain that, if I can. I thought that perhaps it would be well to have this information for the Members of Congress. I think that it is highly important to the Members of Congress to have an estimate of what the cost of the next census was going to be. That does not go into this bill at all, It is simply for the information of the Members of Congress in passing upon the bill. There is no figure mentioned in the bill, and there could not be any mentioned as to the cost.

Suppose that we just passed a blanket act saying, "There shall be a census of agriculture, population, and distribution," and left it there. The Bureau of the Census, for the Secretary of Commerce, will prepare an estimate of the cost. Then that estimate of the cost will be taken to the Budget, and then from the Budget it will be submitted to the President and the President will submit it to the House, and the House will refer it to the Committee on Appropriations. Then it will get before the House. I asked the gentlemen the question if these were the figures that they would present to the Budget, and I did that to ascertain whether these are the figures that they are going to hold to; and he informed the committee that they would, that this is their estimate that they would submit to the Budget when the proper time came. Of course, this is not submitted for an appropriation.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. Suppose that the Director of the Budget

The CHAIRMAN. If he says that it is too much they could not have it. Mr. JACOBSTEIN. Suppose that he said that they ought not to go over twenty-five million, and they told the Director of the Budget that they would cut some item out and the Director of the Budget asked them what item they would cut out.

Mr. RANKIN. He will not do that. Congress is superior to the Director of the Budget.

Mrs. KAHN. Theoretically.

Mr. RANKIN. Yes, and as a practical matter.

The CHAIRMAN. He could not go contrary to law.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. Here is a suggestion coming before Congress involving this census taking. We have a $40,000,000 proposition and before we get through with it, including the census of agriculture and distribution it may run up to $50,000,000.

Mr. RANKIN. I do not doubt it.

The CHAIRMAN. I think that it is proper to say

Mr. JACOBSTEIN (interposing). Suppose that the Director of the Budget says that $30,000,000 is enough. Are you going to drop the census of distribution, and the census of agriculture?

The CHAIRMAN. There is not a word in that bill that would give them authority to do that.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. I am trying to get that information before we attempt to perfect the bill. The time to work on that is before you pass the bill.

The CHAIRMAN. Why?

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. So as to know where you are going. I would like to know what the difference is going to be in the cost.

The CHAIRMAN. That is what this statement shows.

Mr. RANKIN. You are certainly going to permit us, as an authorized committee in the House, to bring out the information that we want in connection with that bill.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. Suppose that the Director of the Budget should say to the Census Bureau, "Well, we will allow your bureau, for the purpose of taking the census, $30,000,000. Now, you have got to lop something off, Mr. Census Director. What are you going to lop off?" Suppose that he said he was only going to allow the Director of the Census $30,000,000. What are you going to do? What would you suggest? What would you suggest eliminating?

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Jacobstein, do you not think that it probably would be the other way-that the bureau, or the department goes before the Budget fully equipped to answer any questions that are raised by the bureau or the Director of the Budget in regard to the items which they desire to present to the bureau? The Bureau of the Budget does not start in and say, "You have got to cut that $5,000,000."

It is for them to say, "Can you get along with less; and where can you get along with less?" And I think that the department, perhaps, will be able to answer that; furnish that information. Then, if they are not satisfied and do not get what they think they should have, they can request of the Appropriations Committee for it.

Mr. JACOBSTEIN. I am interested in everything that they have given here and I would like very much to see all of that stay in. But I think that quite frequently the Budget frightens the other officials of the Government.

Mr. RANKIN. But the House will not get frightened. The House did not get frightened yesterday when it stuck on $600,000 extra without the Budget's advice or consent.

After all, the Budget merely formulates estimates and the House and the Senate and the President are not bound by them. Now, if the Budget should protest againt any part of this expense it would be up to the House and the Senate, the law-making power, to either approve or disapprove the Budget's recommendations, but for us to go to the Budget before we ever bring out a law, or even start out on the theory that the Budget is going to hedge us in here, throw limi