But if this Lee bill is enacted, repealing the provision to which I referred, I will tell you right now, gentlemen, that that is the end of aviation in this country. It will be ruined, because operators will attempt to increase the hours, and it will simply be fatal.

So, please, in considering either the Lee bill or the McCarran bill, S. 2, continue the protective provisions contained in paragraph 13 which now would be repealed as the bills stand.

Senator TRUMAN. I heard you say that the Pittsburgh accident may have been caused by structural defects. It has been reported that that accident was caused by ice on the wings. Do you think devices to prevent ice on the wings should have been in use?

Mr. LA GUARDIA. Certainly. As I understand it, we have de-icers at the tops of the wings. The plane is in constant motion. Just what that is doing to the metal with which it comes in contact I do not think anybody knows. There should be some scientific body or agency of the Government, knowing that we have these de-icers and we have had them now for several years, to make tests of what it is doing to the plane. It will de-ice certain kinds of ice. When it is very cold, it freezes suddenly and you have very brittle ice on the wings. When the ice is like slush, it adds to the weight. If it was ice that caused it, that bears out the statement that perhaps we should not fly in certain temperatures at the present time and in the present development of the art. We know when ice will form. We know the temperatures. A plane cannot carry much ice; there is no question about that. Loaded as it is, the weight it has, and to make the time it has to make, it cannot carry much ice.

Take a train, for example. It goes into a cyclone, and it can stop. But a plane cannot land anywhere; and when an emergency happens, gentlemen, such as happened some time ago when a place ran into a hill in going into Burbank, a few months ago, we wonder why. Because something happened. Going through the air at the rate of 180 miles an hour, 1,000 yards or 500 yards is just an instant. That is why you run into a mountain. If your motor goes dead in going at that speed, and you cannot climb, you are all through.

Accepting the theory that it was ice that caused the accident, that is a very small consolation to the families of the 13 people who lost their lives. We ought to know more about ice. That bears out the necessity of such a bureau in the Government which would make such studies. Of course I do not say that it was willful. I do not say that under present conditions it was preventable; but I do say that we ought to know more about it at this time; and if we do not know as much as we should, we should start now to learn more about it. I believe that the Safety Board in the Interstate Commerce Commission would do that.

Gentlemen, aviation means much to this country. Regardless of what the foreign policy of this country may be, with a trained air personnel and I repeat, you can only train them in the air—with availing ourselves of the progress and the science of aviation, we would always have an air force that would be very useful in the defense of the country.

Senator TRUMAN. It would be absolutely essential to the defense of the country? We could not get along without it?

Mr. LA GUARDIA. Absolutely. We are growing into one economic unit. What affects New York affects Wyoming, and Idaho, and

California. It is just one economic unit, regardless of the construction that may be put on interstate commerce by another branch of the Government. We are a fast-moving people. The tempo of business in this country is beyond that of any other country in the world, and aviation is the coming means of transportation.

I said in Congress 10 years ago that the time is coming, gentleinen, when nearly all mail will be carried by air. It is a pity to have progress retarded by just a little bit of selfishness or lack of vision or unwillingness to cooperate. We have had the experience of the railroads. The railroads have never done a thing in their whole history-maybe from now on they will, because they have this competition-to improve conditions, until it was forced upon them. Why, gentlemen, since aviation has come into existence the railroads have increased their speed. We used to take a train in New York for Washington, and it required 5 hours to make the trip, and we had to thank the railroads for giving us the Congressional Limited that it could do it in 5 hours. Now we make the trip in 32 hours. They could have done it at that time. Stream-lining is not new. Electrically driven locomotives did not come overnight. We knew about them 20 years ago. Look at the trains going from Chicago out to the coast. They make the trip in 36 hours now. That could have been done 35 years ago, but they just did not do it. These operators are very good friends of mine; I like them. They are fine fellows, but I would not trust them with complete inspection of their equipment any more than I would trust the old Southern Pacific Co. in dealing with land grants, if we had to do it all over again. It is human nature. They work a plane and work it until something happens.

I think this will do more good than even subsidies. We want to learn all there is to learn. We surely want to give the fullest protection to the traveling public, and we want to protect the pilots.

I think that this bill-if you will please see that nothing happens to take out the protection to the public which is provided by section 13-would do more good than 150 investigations of 150 wrecks. Post mortem has never cured anybody. There is very little to learn from a post mortem of a wrecked airplane. There is nothing that spells finality more than a wrecked airplane. I have seen them. There is very little that can be learned from a wreck, because everything is in pieces.

This bill is constructive. It is the progressive thing to do, gentlemen, and it will do more for the development of aviation in this country than anything that has ever been presented to Congress.

I have one more thing to suggest that I think ought to be done. After the development of the Ericsson propeller England experimented for 100 years with propeller designs. I think we ought to enlarge the facilities of the Government for scientific tests and studies. I believe that with all the money we are spending we ought to have an appropriation for prizes each year for improvement in motor and propeller design, safety devices, and plane design. I think there ought to be some place in the Government. I think we have at Langley Field now certain facilities; if the facilities are not sufficient, they ought to be enlarged, so that a motor might be brought there for testing, and make tests of planes in wind-tunnels.

I think they have such facilities at Langley Field, but I think they should be enlarged all the way through.

I sincerely hope that you will be able to get this bill passed. Senator TRUMAN. Thank you, Mr. Mayor, for your statement.

STATEMENT OF DAVID L. BEHNCKE, PRESIDENT, AIR-LINE PILOTS ASSOCIATION-Resumed

Senator TRUMAN. Do you have a further statement to make to the committee, Mr. Behncke?

Mr. BEHNCKE. Yes, sir. I would like to make a further statement on Senate bill 1760.

The other day when I testified, I testified in regard to H. R. 5234. That was the rate-fixing bill. I will try to complete my statement as quickly as I can.

Senator TRUMAN. Please make it as brief and as succinct as possible. We know how you feel on this subject, and we want to have your statement on the record, but we do not wish to take any more time than necessary, because we are trying to complete the hearings.

Mr. BEHNCKE. I have had twenty years of flying experience as a pilot in all branches of American aviation, principally the Air Corps of the Army, and on the air lines. I have 10,000 hours in the air.

The Air Line Pilots' Association was organized and affiliated with the American Federation of Labor a little over 5 years ago. It includes in its membership approximately 90 percent of all pilots flying on our air lines in the States, in Alaska, across the Pacific, and to and through South American countries. I did not have much time to prepare my statement. For the last 3 months accidents have been taking up practically all my time and all the time of the pilots' association. I shall try to stay very close to the subject of air safety, and move along as quickly as possible. It is a large subject and I necessarily have to condense it.

I should like to analyze, first, the many crashes we have had during the past several months. We have had many terrible crashes and the public has become a little bit afraid of travel by air. They cannot be much blamed for that. The same condition existed in railroad transportation during the period around about 1912. The Interstate Commerce Commission took hold of safety of railroads, and we all know what their record is. We know that it is much safer to ride on the railroads today than it was in years past.

Senator DAVIS. Do you care to make any comment on the Pittsburgh disaster?

Mr. BEHNCKE. Well, no. I believe that the last witness has covered that quite adequately. It was no doubt due to ice formation and the inability of the de-icers to handle the situation.

Senator DAVIS. Is there anything in the report that they had run out of gasoline?

Mr. BEHNCKE. I have not read the report; I am not familiar with it.

Senator DAVIS. I mean, just current reports.

Mr. BEHNCKE. I had not heard of it.

Starting with December 15, 1936, we have had up to this time seven airplane accidents. These accidents have resulted in the death of 50 people. Eleven of those persons were pilots.

On December 15, 1936, seven persons disappeared on a flight between Los Angeles and Salt Lake City.

On December 18 a transport carrying pilot and copilot, with 500 pounds of Christmas mail, crashed 15 miles south of Kellogg, Idaho.

On December 19, 11 persons crashed near Matamoras, Pa. All survived due to the skill and good judgment of Pilot Dick Merrill, who twice flew the Atlantic. The cause of the crash was beam failure.

On December 27, 12 persons crashed while en route to Burbank from San Francisco, Calif.

February 9, 11 persons lost their lives in San Francisco Bay.

On January 12, at Newhall, Calif., five persons lost their lives, including Mr. Martin Johnson, the noted big-game hunter.

On March 25, which was just a short time ago, there occurred the Pittsburgh crash, in which 13 lives were lost.

Of course, the pilots are interested in seeing the industry progress on a fair and sound basis, but our prime interest is safety. The pilots are carrying a tremendous responsibility, and unless the industry is operated under a clean-cut and enforceable safety law, such as the McCarran bill, the pilots are quite helpless to increase public safety. They cannot always bridge all of the gaps left by improper regulation, lack of proper aids, and other navigational facilities. Responsibility has been increased, authority has been greatly reduced, but when something happens, the pilot usually gets the blame. The pilot fatality is much higher than the passenger fatality, because of more constant exposure. The passenger rides only once in a while, but the pilot is continuously on the job, and he rides in the front end where the hazard is highest. Even a good fast nose-over may kill the pilot because he is in the front end of the machine. The same nose-over might prove only a shake-up for the passengers. The Pilots Association is approximately 5 years old. Since the association was organized we have kept a careful check on the death rate of pilots, and the average has been one in every 28 days. We feel that the death rate is too high. In the last 312 months there were 11 pilots killed. That means that there was one killed approximately every 10 days.

The question arises, "Is air safety moving ahead, standing still, or going backward? During the last several months it seems to have been going backward.

In addition to the terrible loss of life, the cost of these crashes is tremendous; and in view of the fact that the industry is subsidized, this cost falls largely, in the final analysis, on the people. One crash will cost approximately $150,000 to $200,000; and when you figure all the crashes we have had in the last 5 years, it represents a tremendous amount of money.

In my opinion, the chaotic condition that exists in the air-transportation industry today is due primarily to the fact that air transportation has outgrown the present governmental regulatory vehicle, which is the old, out-of-date and totally inadequate Air Commerce Act of 1926. This act was created when, to all intents and purposes, there was no air-passener-transportation industry. In other words,

a law created virtually before air-passenger transportation existed. It is hardly applicable, now that we are flying every day approximately 201,000 miles on scheduled air lines.

In other words, the law that is governing air-passenger transportation today was enacted virtually before there was any air-passenger transportation. We are flying today approximately 201,000 scheduled miles every 24 hours, and we have approximately 29,000 air-mail-route miles, and this figure is ever increasing. I repeat: Today we are flying approximately 201,000 miles each 24 hours, and this figure is also every increasing. We have only to look at our air-network map covering North and South America, Alaska, and the broad expanse of the Pacific to realize the tremendous regulatory, proper maintenance, and proper inspection problems that we are now facing. In many instances our air liners are being flown long distances without proper inspection.

The main trouble with the present regulatory agency is that it is a fostering and promotional proposition. There is not sufficient enforcement; it is all too loosely knit. We must have a definite placing of responsibility before we can increase air safety. In other words, we must first see what is to be done, and then we must have a law that is clean-cut and sharp, that will see that it is done.

The trouble with the entire air-line picture of today is that it has been working under loose, unenforced regulations so long that we have reached the point where no one is sure of anything. There is no definite placing of responsibility. In 1933 the Statistical Division of the Department of Labor made a study of pilots' flying hours. It was discovered that there was a 10 percent violation of the monthly 110-hour safety limitation, but no record of prosecution. Air travel is safe if properly regulated. As a matter of fact, it is one of the safest modes of travel that has yet been introduced to modern civilization; but if it is not properly regulated there can be only one answer-continued unnecessary loss of human life. Unenforced laws and regulations are meaningless.

There have been many accidents; and when accidents occur the natural inclination of everyone is to start jumping out from under, shifting responsibilities, passing the buck, and, in the final analysis, they usually make the pilot the "goat." In other words, the natural result of all this is to conveniently blame the pilot, and attribute the cause of the accident to "pilot's error."

Accident investigation procedure must be greatly improved upon before we will know more definitely what is causing each of our air accidents.

The McCarran safety bill will, if enacted, eliminate this evil and will provide for proper accident investigation.

The air-line pilots resent being blamed for everything, and they are fighting back. When laws have been created to properly regulate air transportation and air transportation safety, the same as railroads and other modes of travel are regulated by the Interstate Commerce Commission, then, and not before, will we know the real cause of accidents.

The regulations governing air transportation have always been overcrowded with overworked phrases, such as "deemed adequate", "deemed sufficient", "in the discretion of the Secretary." In other words, it is one-man control, but with all the evils of a dictatorship