He gave it his immediate attention; and I commend him as highly as I know how for his prompt and vigorous action in the matter. His letter is as follows [reading]:

Hon. KENNETH MCKELLAR,

Chairman, Committee on Post Offices and Post Roads,

FEBRUARY 10, 1937.

United States Senate, Washington, D. C. DEAR SENATOR MCKELLAR: Confirming our conversation of this morning, Mr. N. B. Haley, Director of the Bureau of Air Mail, will bring to the office of the Committee on Post Offices and Post Roads of the Senate on February 12, at 11 a. m., the reports of free and reduced-fare transportation rendered by air-mail carriers. Mr. Haley will be glad to remain to answer any questions that may be asked him.

In accordance with your request, I am enclosing herewith a statement giving the present rates for each air-mail route.

On behalf of all the members of the Commission, I acknowledge receipt of your letter of the 9th instant, with which was enclosed copy of your letter of the same date to Commissioner Eastman.

With best wishes, I am,

Yours sincerely,

(Enclosures.)

CARROLL MILLER, Chairman.

The table of rates enclosed with his letter is as follows:

Here is a letter, dated February 10, 1937, from Commissioner Walter M. W. Splawn, addressed to me [reading]:

Hon. KENNETH MCKELLAR,

United States Senate.

FEBRUARY 10, 1937.

MY DEAR SENATOR MCKELLAR: May I acknowledge receipt of your favor of February 9, 1937, in which you were good enough to enclose a copy of your letter addressed to Commissioner Eastman of the same date.

Very sincerely yours,

W. M. W. SPLAWN.

On February 10 a like letter from Commissioner McManamy was written to me, as follows [reading]:

Hon. KENNETH MCKELLAR,

United States Senate, Washington, D. C.

FEBRUARY 10, 1937.

MY DEAR SENATOR: This is to acknowledge receipt of your letter of February 9, enclosing a copy of a letter of the same date addressed to Commissioner Eastman.

The matter referred to therein will receive prompt attention.

Yours very truly,

FRANK MCMANAMY, Commissioner.

Another letter of February 10, 1937, from Commissioner Caskie, as follows [reading]:

Hon. KENNETH MCKELLAR,

United States Senate, Washington, D. C.

FEBRUARY 10, 1937.

MY DEAR SENATOR MCKELLAR: While I am not a member of the Division in charge of the Bureau of Air Mail, immediately upon receipt of your letter of the 9th instant, with which you enclosed copy of your letter to Commissioner Eastman of the same date. I discussed the subject of your letter with both Commissioner Eastman and Chairman Miller and was advised that Chairman Miller would get in touch with you during the day with the view of disposing of the subject in a manner satisfactory to you. With warm personal regards and best wishes, I am

DEAR SENATOR: I am in receipt of your favor of the 9th enclosing me a copy of letter you have written Commissioner Eastman, wherein it is suggested that Mr. Haley, Director of the Bureau of Air Mail, has not, in his reports to the Senate, fully complied with the statute governing such matters. Please be assured that I shall be glad to look into this matter at once. Yours very truly,

CLAUDE R. PORTER, Commissioner.

Another one from Commissioner William E. Lee, dated February 10, 1937, as follows [reading]:

Hon. KENNETH MCKELLAR,

United States Senate, Washington, D. C.

FEBRUARY 10, 1937.

MY DEAR SENATOR: I beg to acknowledge receipt of a copy of your letter to Commissioner Eastman under date of the 9th instant, relating to a report from the Director of the Bureau of Air Mail, of this Commission, as to free transportation, etc. While I am not a member of the division of the Commission having air mail directly in charge, I shall be glad to look into the matter.

Very truly yours,

WM. E. LEE, Commissioner.

Another one from Commissioner Meyer, as follows [reading]: FEBRUARY 10, 1937.

Hon. KENNETH MCKELLAR,

United States Senate, Washington, D. C.

MY DEAR SENATOR: I have received your letter of the 9th transmitting copy of a letter of the same date addressed by you to Commissioner Eastman. I shall be glad to inquire into the situation dealt with in this correspondence, and in due course you will be further advised.

It is a long time since I have seen you. I hope you are well. I send you my kindest regards. B. H. MEYER, Commissioner.

Very truly yours,

I think that covers all the members of the Commission, But here is Mr. Haley's letter. I will ask that that go into the record. The CHAIRMAN. Will you read it, or let Mr. Haley read it? Senator MCKELLAR. It is as follows [reading]:

Hon. KENNETH MCKELLAR,

Washington, D. C.

FEBRUARY 5, 1937.

DEAR SENATOR MCKELLAR: In reply to your letter of yesterday concerning the summary of reports of air-mail carriers of their free and reduced-far transportation.

In the absence of direction in the Air Mail Act (sec. 6 (f)) to make a report to the Congress, it occurred to me that you would be interested in the summaries voluntarily published by the Commission. I sent you a similar statement last year.

Of course, the underlying data from which these summaries were compiled are public records but are, however, quite voluminous. The labor in compiling tabulations of the details of the names and addresses of donees of, and the reasons for, such transportation would, in addition to the duties required by the act, be impossible within the limited appropriation granted the Commission for air-mail work.

Very truly yours,

N. B. HALEY, Director.

The CHAIRMAN. I would like to go back to the conversation that you had in Senator McKellar's office and what took place, as you recall it.

Mr. HALEY. Mr. Chairman, I think you were not here when I described the circumstances of that visit, which I have stated was the only time that I was in Senator McKellar's office, and the first time that I ever saw him.

In February 1935 the President called a conference at noon one day on aviation matters, and the White House secretary notified me that I was expected to be present. There were also present at that meeting, besides Senator McKellar and myself, Representative Mead, of the House Post Office Committee; Senator O'Mahoney, of the Senate Post Office Committee; and Mr. Harllee Branch, Second Assistant Postmaster General. At the conclusion of the conference the President suggested that we continue discussion of the matter, which related to proposed amendments to the Air Mail Act, and Senator McKellar asked us to meet in his office at 2 o'clock.

The Commission has a legislative committee which handles all legislative matters

The CHAIRMAN. Yes; I am familiar with that. What I wanted to get at particularly was the conversation that took place in Senator McKellar's office. He has asked you if you did not remember certain matters, and you said you did not. Now, what was the conversation that took place, as you recall it?

Mr. HALEY. We met there by appointment, and there was some discussion of various provisions of the proposed amendment to the act. The thing which Senator McKellar has referred to particularly was a suggestion that the top limits fixed by the Air Mail Act for rate making should be either lifted or removed. There were several other minor details discussed, as I recall it. We were not in conference a long time. I know that Commissioner McManamy said very little, and I do not think I said much more than he did. We were respectful listeners most of the time.

The CHAIRMAN. The talking was done by the Senators, as usual? Mr. HALEY. I would not say that, in this instance.

Senator MCKELLAR. I think you might as well say it, because I did a good deal of the talking when I found out what you gentleman wanted.

Senator MCCARRAN. I understand that it was at that meeting in Senator McKellar's office, as you recall it, that Mr. Harllee Branch, the Second Assistant Postmaster General, suggested lifting the top limit?

Mr. HALEY. That is my recollection, Senator.

Senator MCCARRAN. And it did not come from you?

Mr. HALEY. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Let me ask Commissioner McManamy this question: Do you remember that conversation, Mr. Commissioner?

Commissioner McMANAMY. I have quite a clear recollection of everything that transpired in Senator McKellar's office on that occasion.

The CHAIRMAN. Was it suggested by you or by Mr. Haley that the top rate should be lifted?

Commissioner MCMANAMY. It was not. The suggestion with respect to lifting the top rates came after some discussion by some of the others, and I was asked this question, I think, by Senator O'Mahoney, but it may have been by Mr. Dobbins: "What is your opinion concerning the advisability of raising the top rates?"

My reply was that I had not given that particular consideration, but that if any change were made I thought it would be better to lift the rates than to lower them, because in handling rail rates the Commission was left free, without restrictions, to adjust different rates. The CHAIRMAN. Did the suggestion with reference to that come up in the first place from Mr. Branch?

Commissioner McMANAMY. Do you mean with respect to lifting the top rates?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Commissioner MCMANAMY. I cannot answer that positively, Mr. Chairman, but my recollection corresponds with Mr. Haley's as to that. I am a little bit uncertain.

There was some more conversation with respect to the matter there that I would be glad to give you, if you desire it. The CHAIRMAN. What was that?

Commissioner McMANAMY. I have had an opportunity only on yesterday to glance over the record of Saturday.

Following the discussion of the top rates, some discussion was had with respect to the evidence which was introduced in the airmail hearings, and I was asked by Senator McKellar, I think, largely, and as he stated, whether or not I had read the two reports referred to; and I had not.

Senator McKellar then criticized me and the Commission for not having considered them and asked why we did not study them and consider them in connection with the fixing of the rates.

My reply was that, first, the testimony before a Senate committee was not sworn to; that, second, it was not subject to the test of crossexamination; and that, third, it was not introduced in our records, and therefore we could not properly consider it.

Following that the Senator pursued his criticism a little bit further, and he said this, "This work was assigned to the Interstate

Commerce Commission for the purpose of having it supervise these rates. If they are to increase the rates, perhaps we referred this to the wrong commission. Perhaps we made a mistake."

I said, "Senator, if there was a mistake made in that, it was your mistake, and not ours, because we never asked for it."

Following that there was more discussion by the Senator, after which Senator O'Mahoney-my recollection is quite clear it was hesaid to Senator McKellar, "But, Senator, the Commissioner's reply or statement was made in response to a question asked by me."

The matter was dropped then, after we were finished with the discussion. I think the bell rang, and the Senator had to go upon the floor. At any rate, he was called away, and the meeting broke up very suddenly. Senator McKellar came over and shook hands with me and said this: "I hope you won't take too seriously any criticism that you may have felt that I offered. I meant nothing serious by it." I then shook hands with the Senator, and that closed the hearing. That was almost the entire discussion, as far as I participated.

Mr. Haley has explained the method by which the arrangement was made for me to attend the conference. I was not invited originally. Mr. Haley desired to furnish to the committee all of the information that it might possibly have asked for, and he asked me to go along with him. I could not go, of course, without Senator McKellar's being consulted. Mr. Haley consulted him, and I understood that the Senator said he would be glad to have me come.

It having been my only conference with the committee or any member of it, and not having studied the matter, I was an interested listener, and I took no active part in the discussion of the question. The CHAIRMAN. Have you, Mr. Haley, or have you, Mr. Commissioner, examined these reports of the free transportation that has been furnished?

Mr. HALEY. May I explain that?

Senator MCKELLAR. Before we go into that may I have an opportunity to cross-examine Commissioner McManamy?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Senator MCKELLAR. Commissioner McManamy, what was the purpose of your visit other than to get an amendment to the act to remove the 33-cent and 40-cent limitations?

Commissioner MCMANAMY. I had no such purpose, and I made no such request. I will answer that further, if I may.

The CHAIRMAN. Let the witness answer the question fully.

Senator McKELLAR. Yes.

Commissioner MCMANAMY. My sole purpose was in an effort to be helpful to the committee in their dealing with a very difficult situation. I considered it as such. I had no interest in raising or lowering the top limit, and I made no request to amend the proposed act in any way.

Senator MCKELLAR. Did you not, in answer to a question by me, say that you had no knowledge at all of air-mail rates and that you had never examined into them?

Commissioner McMANAMY. I may have said about that.

Senator MCKELLAR. Do you recall that I then asked you if you were there asking for an elimination of this limitation of 33 cents without doing the Post Office Committee the courtesy even to read the testimony that was offered in this committee concerning these rate changes,