I just think that is inherent in the process of, responsible local and State reaction which the bill would promote. Senator NELSON. I wouldn't expect any changeover to occur without all kinds of problems. There isn't any question about that. In your testimony you say that there are two methods by which the metropolitan area prime sponsors can be designated, and you detail those methods there. Then you say that in any case the mayors will have a strong voice in selection. Will the proposal provide that the Governor is the final voice in the event he wants to designate a unit of government within a geographic area? In other words, is he the final word on that, or how does his power stack up against the power of the mayor in a major metropolitan area in designating a prime sponsor? Secretary SHULTZ. The key hand is played by the mayor, as we see it in this case, but I think you are getting into something that calls attention to one of the most interesting aspects, to my mind, of this act, and that is this very conscious use of the word "metropolitan area," or "standard metropolitan statistical area." In other words, we are trying to concentrate on a labor market, as distinct from a political entity that may not be correlative to the labor market. I think we are all familiar with the pattern by which you have many disadvantaged residents in a metropolitan area living in a particular space in a city, and you have a lot of jobs being developed well outside that locality, and unless you look upon this area as a whole, you are not going to deal effectively with all the variables that are at play there. So we have consciously tried to direct ourselves toward the metropolitan area, and that is where this 75-percent idea comes in. If, of course, there is a high concentration of the population in the city itself, that is to say, 75 percent, then the mayor has predominant authority to name the prime sponsor. If there isn't you are bringing in people from the surrounding areas, and there has to be some kind of a working-together process to get the prime sponsors designated. That process is what we hope will be a healthy process of joint examination of what the problems are in the areas as a whole, and how to meet those needs. Senator NELSON. I just wonder how carefully we have explored the problems that may arise in your second method, which is for the highest elected official representing 75 percent of the population of the area to agree to select another public or private agency to serve as prime sponsor. I know that the Secretary is well aware of the widespread dispute between the cities and the suburbs all across the Nation, little cities, big cities, and cities desiring annexation for all purposes, and suburbs desiring just to participate in that aspect of the metropolitan city that helps them, but not the rest of the city. What is going to happen-I am sure there will be many metropolitan areas in which the suburbs constitute more than 25 percent, perhaps 30 percent or 40 percent of the metropolitan area. What kind of a political fight have you raised here to get them to agree on selecting the public or private agency that serves as the prime sponsor? Secretary SHULTZ. I think you can look upon this as a proposition where people have a fight. Certainly you are absolutely right in saying there are all sorts of issues among various units of government and around the cities. Our approach is to say that, "Well, those are problems. They have to be solved. If we are really going to get somewhere in particular localities, solving the problems we have, somehow or other we are to get these people together and get them working together in a much closer way." Now, what the act provides in a sense is an incentive for them to do just that, because if you can't get together, you don't get your control of these funds, and you don't get effectively into the act, and we think that is the kind of incentive that may help draw people together. It isn't only the city suburbs that may have some problems with each other, but Governors and mayors may have some problems with each other, let alone the Federal Government and State govern ments. There are all sorts of problems among different units of government, and what we think we have here is a set of incentives for working at them, and certainly if we are going to get some place with these problems, we think we have to start solving these intergovernmental problems. I think Mr. Weber would like to add something on this. Mr. WEBER. I just wanted to note, Mr. Chairman, that, you know, in some instances, as for example in Los Angeles, you already have a CAA which is a quasi-public institution. It is EYOA. I don't know what is behind the acronym. But that encompasses almost all of Los Angeles. It involves units of county government and city government. I am not going to prejudge what the mayors and Governors are going to indicate, but that is a prototype that has been developed where you have the establishment of a prime sponsor for the delivery of manpower systems on virtually a metropolitan basis. Beyond that, the bill proposes on page 9 in section 102 that in designating a prime sponsor for an area, the Governor shall consider the distribution of population, work force and disadvantaged persons within the area. For purposes of this paragraph, the highest elected official of each unit of local government shall represent such unit. Senator NELSON. Who defines the metropolitan area? Secretary SHULTZ. Well, the standard statistical metropolitan area is a defined unit. Mr. WEBER. That is a defined unit by the Bureau of the Budget, but the bill provides you can use either the SMSA or other area or areas, and that is to recognize the need for flexibility in particular situations. Senator NELSON. There is a definition by the Bureau of Labor Statistics as to what a metropolitan area consists of. Secretary SCHULTZ. I think that is so. Why don't you give an example to show the problem? Mr. WEBER. The Bureau of the Budget has identified 233 metropolitan statistical areas. Senator NELSON. And there is no dispute on what those units are? Secretary SHULTZ. No. Those are thought of as being economic units. Senator NELSON. You say that there are two methods by which metropolitan area sponsors may be chosen. You are using there a prescribed area by the Bureau of the Budget? Secretary SHULTZ. That is correct. As Mr. Weber pointed out, there is in the bill authority to designate another area. There are a number of reasons for that. You might not want to be bound, necessarily, to the geographic definition in all cases. If you take the area that I come from, Chicago, the Illinois area, the economic unit includes parts of Indiana. So, here you have two States involved. Now, we think probably it would be desirable if we can get this economic unit to look at itself that way and have the two States and their Governors in a cooperative relationship with regard to the management of the manpower funds in the area. Maybe that will be possible, and maybe it won't. So we just have to look and see on that. So that would be one kind of example of the problem. In other cases you may have an area that is so tremendous that somehow to make it manageable at all, you are going to have to divide it up a little bit. New York is an example of this; taking the New York area broadly, it is an interstate area with a tremendous population. Probably you would want to coordinate your units, and not bit off too big a piece. Senator NELSON. Who is going to make the decisions of what the metropolitan area is if you don't follow the designated areas by the Bureau of the Budget? Secretary SHULTZ. Well, some combination of mayors, Governors and the Secretary of Labor, because you will have some interstate type problems, you see. Senator NELSON. You say there are 250 such designated metropolitan areas now? Mr. WEBER. I think 233. Senator NELSON. Senator Mondale requests they be submitted for part of the record. (The information subsequently supplied follows:) STANDARD METROPOLITAN STATISTICAL AREAS (SMSA) RANKED ACCORDING TO 1960 CENSUS POPULATION WITH CENTRAL CITY OR CITIES SHOWN AS A PERCENT OF SMSA POPULATION |