Production and Marketing Administration and, as I understood it, such other activities of other agencies as he might see fit to put into it. Secretary ANDERSON. At the top of page 10 it states:

The Agricultural Research Administration shall hereafter be known as the "Natural and Physical Science Administration," and the Secretary shall transfer to it all research of the United States Department of Agriculture in the natural and physical sciences which the Secretary determines to be basic, rather than merely incidental, to the administration of programs not principally involving research.

Senator AIKEN. I guess we are talking about two different proposals. I was reading with reference to the Bureau of Agricultural Conservation and Improvement. I see that you refer to the Agricultural Research Administration-of which you are speaking. Secretary ANDERSON. Yes.

Senator AIKEN. You consider that you would have to transfer the research work of the Forest Service to this?

Secretary ANDERSON. Yes. Again I say, Senator, that if we have misread the bill or misinterpreted the bill, we shall be glad to go back and change the testimony.

Senator AIKEN. Are you fully informed and aware at all times of just what research work is being conducted or work being conducted under the name of research of all the agencies under the Department of Agriculture?

As one member of the committee, I came to the conclusion that it would be very helpful to you to have one man in charge of all this work and coordinating it, and, to tell the truth, we thought at first that we would allow an assistant secretary; and then we got to feeling that perhaps a man more responsible to you than an assistant secretary would work closer with you and that an assistant secretary or undersecretary appointed by the President and approved by the Senate might be more political in nature, who might have views which would differ from the Secretary himself and, all in all, it would be better, if a secretary is to be held responsible, for him to have the full power of appointment of this Coordinator.

I personally believe, and I have so informed the Hoover Commission, that I think the Secretary of any department ought to have that full power if he is to be held responsible.

Secretary ANDERSON. I do believe that Dr. Lambert, who is presently Administrator of the Agricultural Research Administration, and his staff, do effectively coordinate research other than economic at the present time.

Now we have had to keep our activities of the Bureau of Agricultural Economics out of that, because that is not Dr. Lambert's field, but I feel that the research activities are being well coordinated with the present authority.

I would be very glad to have your committee come over and check on the operation of it.

I sympathize very much with what you are saying because after long discussion with Milton Eisenhower, I had proposed an Assistant Secretary for all coordination of research activities including this marketing and research. That was to be brought in and then we began to move back and forth and find other things that ought to come into it and there was proposed an assistant Secretary for credit. By the time we got through we did feel that we would have perhaps too many responsibilities of that nature set up.

You will see that I am referring again, however, to the fact that I have asked several times for two additional Assistant Secretaries and I find that they are extremely useful to have when you have entire programs and projects that you can turn over to them for their supervision.

For instance, at the present time the Under Secretary of Agriculture has assumed almost complete responsibility for the preparation of testimony on appropriations before the Congress. He keeps steadily in touch with it and he is therefore in a far better position to testify than I would be or any other member of the Department would be. Senator AIKEN. I felt that the power of appointment of these keymen should rest with the Secretary rather than with the President for the reason that the Secretary would be undoubtedly inclined to give less attention to political considerations and the President would be more subject to political and geographical pressure.

Secretary ANDERSON. As the matter usually works out, the President recognizes the nomination or request of the Secretary for the selection of the Under Secretary and Assistant Secretaries.

My own experience has been, I am happy to say, that these men do work very closely with you, that they do not seize upon a title and the fact that they have been confirmed to be out and operate independently. It does not matter to me whether the duties were transferred to an Assistant Secretary or whether they were put under this coordinator who might be nominated. I simply say to you that I feel that the present Administrator of the Agricultural Research, Administration, plus his staff, particularly since we have brought the Office of Experiment Stations right up in an almost coordinate basis, are coordinating research better than we have ever had it before, and I think satisfactorily.

Having said that, I am willing to concede that there is a very strong argument on the other side of the question. I am not trying to preach who is right or who is wrong. I am well satisfied with the matter as it now works.

Senator AIKEN. I think we have the same objective and that is to provide the fullest coordination in the research work of the Department.

Secretary ANDERSON. Yes; and whatever the decision of the committee is, we will not have any strong objections to it.

Senator LUCAS. Let me ask you this question: What is the objection to the transfer over to the coordinator, as you suggested in this bill? Everything is working all right now under your scheme. What is the serious objection to the transfer of all these agencies under a single coordinator?

Secretary ANDERSON. It is the transfer of research work in forestry. When you try to separate actual research that is being done in forestry from the actual growing and examination of trees in the national forests, it is a pretty delicate line. We have felt in the Department that it would be much better if we left the research work that Forestry Service does under the Forest Service, but require the submission of projects to the Research Administrator and require Mr. Watts, or whoever is in charge of research under him, to go see Dr. Lambert and say, "This is a project we desire to start," then Dr. Lambert's crew takes it and says over here in the Office of Experiment Stations, "We find in the State of Indiana that they are doing a

specific project along this very same line," and he then insists that there be a tie-up between this State project and this Federal project and he does a job that way that we think is sufficient, better perhaps than if the entire personnel were to be transferred to his pay roll.

I have conceded that there are arguments for simplicity along the other line, that many people think it would be just as well if the actual worker is transferred into the Agricultural Research Administration.

After a long study we do not think the worker needs to be transferred there, but that the project needs to be cleared there.

Senator LUCAS. Do you concede that under the present system there could be a duplication of research_work?

Secretary ANDERSON. Yes; but I can see that the possibility is growing less and less remote as these people deal more and more with the Administrator of the Research Administration and with the Office of Experiment Stations.

Senator LUCAS. That may be true under the present administration. That may be because of your keen observations and good judgment and so forth. Would it not operate just as well or better if you had one coordinator? Would there not be less chance for duplication of research activities?

Secretary ANDERSON. The Administrator of the Agricultural Research Administration is the coordinator. He is set up as a coordinator of research all through the Department. He does precisely that. Senator LUCAS. Why is this provision of the bill necessary? Secretary ANDERSON. We do not think it is.

Senator LUCAS. You have that sort of coordinator. Why do we need that in this bill?

Secretary ANDERSON. I am trying to say that I do not think it should be in this bill. We think there is a satisfactory job of coordination being done.

Senator LUCAS. Who is the coordinator at the present time?
Secretary ANDERSON. Dr. Lambert.

Senator LUCAS. Does he have jurisdiction over all research work?
Secretary ANDERSON. Other than economics, yes.

Senator LUCAS. Forestry and conservation?

Secretary ANDERSON. He does not have actual direction of the Forestry Research but all of it must be submitted to him for approval in order that he may check to see it is coordinated with other programs now going on. No research work is done by the Forest Service without submissions to the Agricultural Research Administrator.

Senator LUCAS. Of course that system could be changed tomorrow. Secretary ANDERSON. Yes.

Senator LUCAS. That is a system set up under your administration? Secretary ANDERSON. Yes. It could be changed tomorrow. I do not argue that at all.

Senator AIKEN. Does Dr. Lambert have supervision of research activities in soil testing?

Secretary ANDERSON. I think the answer is yes.

Senator AIKEN. That is whether the work is being done by the Soil Conservation Service or the Experiment Stations?

Secretary ANDERSON. Yes. What we have done more recently is to move the Office of Experiment Stations up and make the head of that

an Assistant Administrator of the Agricultural Research Administration so there would be the closest cooperation between what goes on in the States and under the auspices of the Federal Government.

Senator LUCAS. Assuming this bill was enacted into law and Dr. Lambert was appointed coordinator of all these research experiments in conservation and forestry and whatnot, would be in a position to do a better job than he is now doing?

Secretary ANDERSON. All I can say is that I did not think so or I would have made that change when it was suggested some time before. I cannot help but feel it is extremely desirable to have the broad experience of the head of the Forest Service passing on these research projects and having responsibility for them as well as the head of the Agricultural Research Administration, just as I think it is extremely desirable that the Office of Experiment Stations which deals with States should have a man sitting there as an Assistant Administrator so they are constantly in touch with what the States are doing and can have the background of State operation when Federal projects are being considered. It was much discussed and debated whether we should set this thing up as a single administrator.

Senator LUCAS. You still believe that the individual who is the head of research work in the Forestry Department will accomplish more if it is left more or less to his own initiative?

Secretary ANDERSON. Yes; I do; but I do require him to come over and coordinate.

Senator LUCAS. I understand what you require. You require him to come over and see whether or not he is doing something in the way of research that Soil Conservation perhaps is doing and, if so, he must cease and desist.

Senator AIEN. Is not the Forest Service the best example of independent research which you could select in the whole Department? Secretary ANDERSON. If I were trying to support my point of view, I would try to pick out the best example.

Senator AIKEN. I think you did. For instance, the Commodity Credit Corporation is asking for a new charter. In the original request they wanted the right to conduct research work, apparently independently of anyone else.

This committee has written in that bill permission to conduct research work but we confine that research work to their own field and require it to be tied in with the ARA director. I think it is proper procedure.

Secretary ANDERSON. It is, and it is now the procedure of the Department.

Senator AIKEN. There was a slight struggle before that was written into the bill.

Secretary ANDERSON. I am glad you made the struggle because you are right; they should do it that way.

Senator AIKEN. We believe it should all be coordinated through someone directly responsible to the Secretary if we are to prevent overlapping and do an efficient and economic job in the field of research. We will not restrict the different agencies in conducting research work but we would restrict them as far as two agencies conducting the same work. I suspect that there is duplication in soil testing.

Secretary ANDERSON. There might be, but under this bill all the research work of the Soil Conservation is given to the States. None of it would remain at the national level whatever.

Senator AIKEN. It would be done through the experiment stations. Secretary ANDERSON. Yes; but nothing done on a Nation-wide basis or regional basis. We cannot go with that. We do not believe that is desirable.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you discussed that with the House committee? Secretary ANDERSON. No, I discussed it in a general way in the longrange planning testimony but I do not think we are far apart, Mr. Chairman, as far as that is concerned; we fully agree with everything that has been said about the necessity of coordinating this research.

There was, I think, duplication. I cannot help but feel that we need to coordinate it badly. We put a special group on it, we made long studies of it, then because of the importance of the Research and Marketing Act we presented it again to the Research and Marketing Advisory Committees when they were in here and we had more discussion of it.

We have tried to work out a coordination that I think is efficient. Senator LUCAS. Mr. Secretary, will you state in some detail your objections to turning this over to the soil conservation in the States? Secretary Anderson. I would rather the Soil Conservation people or perhaps someone else in the Department much more familiar than I should do it.

Senator LUCAS. I think that is one of the fundamental questions the committee has to decide because this soil conservation is so important. I seriousyly doubt whether we can offord to take the chance of completely turning it over to the States.

Senator YOUNG. It seems to me the important thing facing this committee is the extension of price supports depending on the longrange program and I am afraid our discussion this morning is an indication of what we are up against. We are going to try to incorporate in one bill both administration reorganization and permanent price-support legislation. I think eventually we are going to have to get down to one bill for reorganization and one bill for extension of price supports.

I think that is the thing on which we ought to be spending more of our time now before price supports expire.

Secretary ANDERSON. May I just say that I cannot help but feel there is a good point being made there. All I am trying to say on this research matter is that we are making an effort to coordinate it. Now rather than hold up the bill to decide whether it would be better to have one over-all coordinator and transfer all soil-conservationresearch work to States, I say let us continue with what we have now, if it does appear to be satisfacory with the committee, and go on and concern ourselves with these things that relate to price support where we know we need to have permanent legislation enacted quickly.

If the committee is convinced that there is no coordination at these levels, then I am going to agree completely with you, that we had better go and find out. I cannot believe that. I have tried to check this carefully and I do believe there is the desirability of continuing what we are doing.

I could go one step further. Something came up in the early AAA program somewhere where some States did not go along. Supposing