The CLERK. I have a proxy from Mr. Staggers for Chairman Moss. Mr. Moss. Mr. Staggers votes no. The CLERK. I have a proxy from Mr. Sharp for Mr. Moss. Mr. Moss. Mr. Sharp votes no. The CLERK. I have a proxy from Mr. Krueger for Mr. Walgren. The CLERK. Mr. Chairman, the vote is 7 ayes and 11 nays. The question now before the committee is the motion offered by the gentleman from Tennessee, Mr. Gore. I will ask the clerk to re-report that motion so that it is clearly available to every member. The CLERK. Resolved that: (1) The subcommittee finds Joseph A. Califano, Jr., in contempt for failure to comply with subpena No. 95-2-75 issued by the subcommittee on August 4, 1978; and (2) The facts of this failure be reported by the chairman of the Subcommittee on Oversight and Investigations to the Committee on Interstate and Foreign Commerce for such action as that committee deems appropriate. Mr. RINALDO. Parliamentary inquiry. Would a motion be in order at this point to postpone the vote on the resolution until a time certain? Mr. Moss. Any motion which under the rules is in order is now in order. Mr. RINALDO. I would then make a motion at this point that the vote on the resolution be postponed until Wednesday, September 6. May I speak on the motion? Mr. Moss. The gentleman is recognized for 5 minutes. Is the motion of the gentleman in fact in order? If so, how does it become in order, given the fact that the resolution offered by the gentleman from Tennessee is now before us? Mr. Moss. The resolution is before us and, as all legislative vehicles, it is subject to amendment. Mr. MOFFETT. It is in the form of an amendment, then. Mr. Moss. Both as to the form of the motion itself or to a device for disposal of the motion. This, in effect, is a motion to postpone to a time certain consideration of the motion. The gentleman from New Jersey is recognized for 5 minutes. Mr. RINALDO. I will not need the entire 5 minutes, Mr. Chairman. I want to state I agree completely with you regarding the seriousness of the matter. I agree that the prerogatives of the Congress are at stake. I agree we do have a right to the information and that we need the information. I would hope during the intervening period of time, the short period of time, that perhaps the Secretary will have an opportunity to discuss the matter further with the Attorney General and others in the Department of Justice. Perhaps there will be a solution offered. Perhaps the Secretary will decide to comply, realizing the seriousness of the matter and the fact that the votes are here for the contempt citation, to comply with the request of the committee. If not, I will state for the record, Mr. Chairman, I will change my vote, which was previously against citation, in favor of a contempt citation when we reconvene and a meeting is held. Mr. WAXMAN. I would like to suggest, and perhaps you can ask unanimous consent, that the amendment be amended to state that the date of September 6 or such other time procedurally or as soon thereafter as the chairman can reconvene the committee. Mr. RINALDO. I will accept that. I will ask unanimous consent that the amendment be amended to read September 6 or such time thereafter as the chairman may call the meeting. I yield back the balance of my time. Mr. Moss. Is there further discussion? Mr. WAXMAN. Some of our colleagues, in an effort to be very fair, feel that the Secretary ought to have additional time within which to consider whether he would go against the direction of a Congress to turn over the information subpenaed, and also, perhaps for the purpose of some negotiation which might be successful in averting the drastic action contemplated. I quite frankly think that we have had enough time. We subpenaed the information. We have had negotiations. The Secretary understands the legal implications of this, and he is refusing, stonewalling if you will, to give us the information that Congress is entitled to receive. However, I want to point out that I will vote against this motion, because I think we are ready at the present time to proceed to a vote of contempt. However, I understand and respect the judgment of some of my colleagues who want to have more time to take care of that problem; and at the end of that time, I hope at that point we will see, if we have not resolved it, and perhaps we will have resolved it and I would be delighted, but at that point they will join the rest of us and realize that the issue then becomes the question of the right of Congress to know and the assertion of our powers under the Constitution. Mr. Moss. Is there further discussion? Mr. SANTINI. I share the basic sentiments of the gentleman from California. I would lend only the emphasis of my negative expectations about the delay of 3 weeks. It will only produce a delay of 3 weeks, and we will be setting down and examining the basic propositions 3 or 4 weeks from now, which we could have resolved and reconciled today. I am persuaded by past experience that inaction never produces action. This, in essence, is the solution being offered to us today. I share the hopes and aspirations of my good friends on the minority that this dormant period of time will evolve a change in posture, but I have considerable pessimism. Mr. Moss. Is there further discussion? [No response.] Mr. Moss. If the Chair may be permitted, I will say to you that we have taken 5 long and difficult weeks in arriving at nothing. We are now being asked to postpone for at least 3 more weeks, the probability of work facing us perhaps, allowing no more than 4 or 5 additional weeks before we take any kind of action moving us closer to a résolution of the present disagreement between the Department of Justice, the Department of HEW, and this committee. I am convinced that if we move today, as I am confident we should, to adopt the resolution offered by the gentelman from Tennessee, that we will be moving toward the kind of situation that might bring about a resolution short of the ultimate confrontation before the full committee and on the floor of the House. That is the reason I have recommended this course of action to the committee. I point out that the Chair has caused the subpena to be served quite a long time after this committee authorized it in an effort still to try to get an agreement. In my judgment, no agreement is possible. I mentioned my view earlier with regard to the present Attorney General and his attitude toward the rights and needs of the Congress. I am convinced that I stated the situation very correctly, and that we have no hope of resolving the matter with the Attorney General. I might point out to this subcommittee that I had to go through months of negotiating on behalf of this subcommittee after the court of appeals gave us the right of access to material under the A.T. & T. case and encountered every kind of nitpicking roadblock you can conceive from the Department of Justice, notwithstanding the clear language of the court of appeals. I know what they understand over there, and the kind of indecision here today is not the kind of thing they either respect or understand. Mr. GORE. I thank the Chair for yielding. I will be very brief. I want simply to note the fact that a vote by this subcommittee is not in and of itself a contempt citation. It is a recommendation to the full committee that it recommend to the full Congress a contempt citation. Delay has been suggested. Delay is inherent in the course of action which I proposed. We recommend to the full committee a citation of contempt based upon the fruitless and long effort we have been engaged in. The full committee will not meet to consider this contempt citation until after the period of time previously suggested as a delay by this subcommittee. After the full committee acts, assuming it does, then there is a further delay before the full Congress acts. During those two periods of delay, both of them hypothetical, the Secretary will have an opportunity to negotiate with the chairman of this subcommittee and with the staff of the subcommittee in an effort to come to some mutually acceptable resolution of this conflict. If we, on the other hand, delay our recommendation to the full committee, the period is protracted. We take a step backward. The Secretary and the Department then have no incentive whatsoever to engage in further discussion. I thank the chairman for yielding. Mr. COLLINS. Mr. Chairman, I move the previous question on the Rinaldo amendment. Mr. Moss. Is there objection to putting the previous question? [No response] Mr. Moss. If not, then the question occurs on the motion of the gentleman from New Jersey that this matter be postponed for action until the 6th of September or such date thereafter as may reasonably be available for the scheduling of further business of the subcommittee. Those in favor of the amendment will indicate by saying aye. [Chorus of ayes.] Mr. Moss. Those opposed will indicate by saying no. [Chorus of noes.] Mr. Moss. In the opinion of the Chair, the noes have it. Mr. RINALDO. I ask for a rollcall. Mr. Moss. A rollcall is demanded, and the Clerk will call the roll. The CLERK. Mr. Santini? Mr. SANTINI. No. The CLERK. Mr. Luken? [No response.] The CLERK. Mr. Walgren? Mr. GORE. No. The CLERK. Mr. Garney? [No response.] The CLERK. Mr. Waxman? Mr. WAXMAN. No. The CLERK. Mr. Sharp! [No response.] The CLERK. Mr. Moffett? Mr. MOFFETT. No. The CLERK. Mr. Maguire? Mr. MAGUIRE. NO. The CLERK. Mr. Krueger? [No response.] The CLERK. Mr. Collins? Mr. COLLINS. Aye. The CLERK. Mr. Lent? Mr. LENT. Aye. The CLERK. Mr. Rinaldo? Mr. RINALDO. Aye. The CLERK. Mr. Stockman? [No response.] The CLERK. Mr. Marks? Mr. MARKS. Aye. The CLERK. Mr. Moss? Mr. Moss. No. The CLERK. Mr. Chairman, I have a proxy from Mr. Devine for Mr. Collins. Mr. COLLINS. Mr. Devine votes aye, by proxy. The CLERK. Mr. Chairman, I have a proxy from Mr. Stockman for Mr. Collins. Mr. COLLINS. Mr. Stockman votes aye. The CLERK. I have a proxy from Mr. Carney for Mr. Moss. Mr. Moss. Mr. Carney votes no. The CLERK. I have a proxy from Mr. Staggers for Chairman Moss. Mr. Moss. Mr. Staggers votes no. The CLERK. I have a proxy from Mr. Sharp for Chairman Moss. Mr. Moss. Mr. Sharp votes no. The CLERK. I have a proxy from Mr. Krueger for Mr. Walgren. The CLERK. I have a proxy from Mr. Luken for Mr. Walgren. The CLERK. Mr. Chairman, the vote is nine ayes and nine nays. Mr. GORE. I move the previous question on my resolution. We have talked long enough. Mr. Moss. Is there objection to placing the previous question? If not, the question occurs on the resolution offered by the gentleman from Tennessee, Mr. Gore, calling for the citation of contempt for the Secretary. The Chair, anticipating the desires of the members, directs the clerk to call the roll. The CLERK. Mr. Santini? Mr. SANTINI. Aye. The CLERK. Mr. Luken? [No response.] The CLERK. Mr. Walgren? Mr. WALGREN. No. The CLERK. Mr. Gore? Mr. GORE. Aye. The CLERK. Mr. Carney? [No response. The CLERK. Mr. Waxman? Mr. WAXMAN. Aye. The CLERK. Mr. Sharp? [No response.] The CLERK. Mr. Moffett? The CLERK. Mr. Maguire? [No response.] The CLERK. Mr. Collins? Mr. COLLINS. No. The CLERK. Mr. Lent? Mr. LENT. No. The CLERK. Mr. Rinaldo? Mr. RINALDO. NO. The CLERK. Mr. Stockman? [No response.] The CLERK. Mr. Marks? Mr. MARKS. No. The CLERK. Mr. Moss? Mr. Moss. Aye. The CLERK. Mr. Chairman, I have a proxy from Mr. Devine for Mr. Collins. Mr. COLLINS. He votes no. The CLERK. I have a proxy from Mr. Stockman for Mr. Collins. Mr. COLLINS. He votes no. The CLERK. I have a proxy from Mr. Carney for Chairman Moss. Mr. Moss. He votes aye. 32-765 - 79 - 7 |