Senator SHORTRIDGE. I was about to ask you, what is the procedure there when he returns and finds the check was issued, was undelivered, and retained by you three months, and then forwarded to Washington; what then must he do, or what must be done to get his money?

General HINES. If it has been forwarded to the General Accounting Office, it would be in that office, and he would have to go through the procedure prescribed by that office. You have a special form, I believe, Mr. Woodside, for that purpose?

Mr. WOODSIDE. I think not now, General Hines.

Senator SHORTRIDGE. Explain the procedure.

General HINES. The check goes from the central bureau to the General Accounting Office. The procedure after that, Mr. Woodside can tell you better than I can.

Senator SHORTRIDGE. Your proposition is that the checks be retained for three full years in your office?

General HINES. Yes, sir.

Senator SHORTRIDGE. Rather than be turned over to the General Accounting Office?

General HINES. Yes, sir.

Senator BINGHAM. And they will be kept in the regional office where the veteran is supposed to live?

General HINES. They will be kept in the disbursing office, be kept by the disbursing officer in his safe in the region where the veteran lives.

Senator SHORTRIDGE. Let me ask you: During those three years, the long period of three years, there may have accumulated a large number of those undelivered outstanding obligations of the Government.

General HINES. We would not continue to issue those checks if they kept coming back. We would stop issuing them until we heard from the veteran. But we would have one or two of them, or perhaps

more.

Senator BINGHAM. How many are allowed to accumulate for one veteran?

Mr. MOORE. Not more than one or two.

Senator SHORTRIDGE. What I want is the informationSenator BINGHAM (interposing). I want your question understood. The Senator from California thinks that there might be a large number of checks accumulated. I understand that is not so.

General HINES. There is only one contingency where that would happen, and that is where they are held by the post office at the delivery point, and not sent back.

Senator SHORTRIDGE. That is what I wanted to develop, Senator. I say, during this period of three years there might accumulate a large number of these outstanding certificates, aggregating several hundreds of thousands of dollars.

General HINES. In the aggregate, but not to one individual, Senator.

Senator SHORTRIDGE. No; certainly not. But the point I wanted to develop is this: During those three years there have been issued and undelivered and retained, we will say for the moment in your department using that phrase checks and certificates or obligations of the Government amounting to hundreds of thousands of dollars in the aggregate.

General HINES. Yes, sir.

Senator SHORTRIDGE. Now, what record of those checks or of those outstanding obligations has the General Accounting Office?

General HINES. The disbursing officer makes a monthly report of his disbursements. He shows certain checks outstanding and not paid, and makes a full report. That is just like you and I do in our accounts, when we balance our bank account. We show certain checks not paid. Those will show up here in the General Accounting Office when the accounts come through.

Senator SHORTRIDGE. General McCarl seems to want this information and the certificates in his department; is that not so, Senator? The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

General HINES. He wants the checks.

The CHAIRMAN. He wants his records complete.

Senator SHORTRIDGE. That is the point I am driving at. In other words, he wants not only the reports but the checks.

General HINES. The checks that are undelivered.

Senator SHORTRIDGE. So that the only point is the retention of the checks.

General HINES. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Let us have a brief statement from the representative of General McCarl.

Mr. WOODSIDE. I believe, Mr. Chairman, we did have some difficulty over the delivery of these checks about the time that this regulation was promulgated. But about a year and a half ago General Hines took the matter up with General McCarl, and some changes have been inaugurated. And there is now very little delay in the delivery of a check. The Veterans' Bureau sends us a letter saying that a check should be delivered to a certain veteran at a certain place. We get no application from the veteran. The check is immediately mailed out. I find from an investigation in our office that there is an average delay of two or three days in mailing a check out.

Now, there is a reason for this that we feel is very material. A claim has been allowed, and yet no payment has been made. The check is outstanding. We know it has not been cashed, but we do not know whether it is undelivered, or lost, or whether it is in someone else's hands. The disbursing officer notifies us that it is not cashed, but we do not know where it is. It may be lost.

Senator BINGHAM. If you got the information from him as to where the check was, would not that be all that you would require? Mr. WOODSIDE. Where it was, Senator?

Senator BINGHAM. Yes. You say you do not know whether it was lost in the mails, or whther it is being carried around by the veteran uncashed. If you had the information as to where it was, would not that be all you would require?

Mr. WOODSIDE. That would cure that, but still it would not tell us whether the credits should be allowed in the expenditure.

Senator BINGHAM. I can not see what difference it makes where the physical check reposes as long as you have the information.

Mr. WOODSIDE. I believe it is just as quick to deliver the check from the General Accounting Office in Washington as from the office in the field, because the beneficiary has left and gone to some other place, so that the check would not follow him.

112237-30-PT 1—5

Senator BINGHAM. But if the veteran comes back to Los Angeles, after wandering, let us say, in South America for a year, and he comes back to get his check in the office where he is known, he can get it right away; but under your proposal he would have to wait. until the notice comes back here across the continent, and then the check can be mailed back to Los Angeles.

Mr. WOODSIDE. If he comes back to the place where the check was issued, that is true. But some of these fellows rove a good deal. If they were centralized at one place, it would be easier and quicker to deliver the checks to them.

General HINES. Mr. Chairman, we have a much more serious problem than the problem of taking care of those checks. That is the matter of the loans on the adjusted insurance certificates. We have to provide a place for those. We have a great many of those loans outstanding, as you know, and we have felt that we could not centralize those, because the veteran comes back to get a new loan when a new credit is due under his certificate, and if we centralized them it would delay matters because we would have to send them to the office here.

The CHAIRMAN. That is a little different. That is for a loan.
General HINES. This is an outstanding obligation.

The CHAIRMAN. But the Government does not pay anything on that. That goes direct to the veteran and it is not in any way, shape, or form such an obligation of the Government.

General HINES. But we have made a partial payment on the certificate.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes; you have made a partial payment.

General HINES. We have made a partial payment on the amount due on the adjusted service certificate. I was trying to point out that the bureau kept those records safely.

The CHAIRMAN. I think we have covered that pretty thoroughly. What is the next matter?

Senator BINGHAM. Suppose those were returned here once a year? General HINES. That would be four times better than it is now. Senator SHORTRIDGE. Just one question. The representative of the comptroller calls attention to the plan that has been adopted by the Government. If that pian were adopted here, would it be different from any other department?

Mr. WOODSIDE. It would be the only department.

General HINES. Has not the War Department some such arrange-ment, Mr. Woodside?

Mr. WOODSIDE. I made special inquiry this morning as to that, General, and find it has not.

Senator SHORTRIDGE. That is, in the War Department, where a check is issued and not delivered, it finds its way back to the General Accounting Office?

Mr. WOODSIDE. After 90 days.

Senator SHORTRIDGE. After 90 days it is sent back and properly entered and recorded, so to speak, in the accounts here by the General Accounting Office?

Mr. WOODSIDE. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. General Hines, the next change is in section 38? General HINES. Section 8 of the bill adds a new section to the act authorizing the director to buy uniforms for personnel employed.

as watchmen, elevator operators, and elevator starters in the Arlington Building, Washington, D. C. This amendment has for its purpose the uniforming of the personnel concerned so that they may present an appearance indicating the capacity in which they serve. The amendment is recommended by the bureau and it is estimated that the cost will be approximately $1,800 a year.

I need this legislation in order to have it authorized for the appropriation bill. If I put it in an appropriation bill it is subject to a point of order; and this is in keeping with the policy of the Government. The CHAIRMAN. It will have to go into an appropriation bill any

way.

General HINES. Yes; to get the money, but this is an authorization for it.

The CHAIRMAN. This is rather an objectionable way of passing legislation here, you know, of this character.

Senator BINGHAM. How would you do it otherwise?

The CHAIRMAN. By A resolution of the Senate and House will do it exactly the same. All right, you may go on.

General HINES. Section 9 of the bill adds a new provision to the act directing the Secretary of War to assemble in the city of Washington all medical and service records pertaining to veterans of the World War. It is understood that the committee of the House was informed that there are approximately 15,000,000 pieces of evidence stored in various depots and on military reservations. While this amendment does not pertain directly to the administration of the Veterans' Bureau it will facilitate the adjudication of cases by making available to the bureau all of the records pertaining to the veterans of the World War. Information was given to the veterans' committee that the cost of this amendment would be approximately $3,000,000, and that the War Department has previously submitted a recommendation as to this matter to the Bureau of the Budget. While the desirability of having these records available for the bureau is manifest, it might be well to secure the recommendation of the Secretary of War as to the feasibility of assembling and storing them in Washington.

I might say, in connection with that, that the great value of those records comes in the bureau's adjudication of claims to determine the past medical record of the men in the service in detail and in many cases for the purpose of establishing service connection. We have had a number of cases where, upon a second search of the records or a further search of the records, men have been able to establish service connection which they could not do otherwise. I believe that other countries-I know in one instance, particularly France, that all of those medical records have been turned over to the Bureau of Veterans, and they have them in their charge. I have felt that it would be a good thing to have that occur here, but the War Department feels that they have to use them in so many cases in checking up reenlistments of men, and so on, that they have opposed turning them over to the bureau. Both the bureau and the War Department are in accord that they should be properly assembled and indexed so that they could be available for either department.

The CHAIRMAN. Why should that cost $3,000,000, simply this transfer?

General HINES. Well, there is a great deal of clerical work in assembling them and getting them together. I think that estimate was

made by the War Department, probably in connection with their gathering of data for the adjusted service compensation.

The CHAIRMAN. It reads [reading]:

The Secretary of War is hereby authorized and directed to transfer to and accumulate in the War Department in the city of Washington, District of Columbia, all records and files containing information regarding medical and service records of veterans of the World War: Provided, That the necessary appropriation to accomplish the transfer of such records and files is hereby authorized."

That is just a transfer. That does not say anything in relation to compilation.

General HINES. No; but they would be of no use unless they are compiled so that they could be found easily and regularly.

The CHAIRMAN. They are not that way now?

General HINES. No; they are boxed and in certain camps and hospitals and have to be indexed under the veteran's name and number, to be available; otherwise you would have to go through all the various boxes, through all these various camps and hospitals.

The CHAIRMAN. How are you going to keep them after they are assembled?

General HINES. I think just as we keep our records now.
The CHAIRMAN. Where are you going to put them?

General HINES. I know of a plan which I had in mind when we asked for them from the War Department. I contemplated using one of the large storage houses out at Perryville, Md., where they could be assembled and placed on steel shelving, and be properly indexed. Where claims have been filed, I think those should come to the Veterans' Bureau and be kept there.

The CHAIRMAN. In other words, you have to rent a storehouse for them?

General HINES. Yes; we have one there.

The CHAIRMAN. Does the Government have that?
General HINES. Yes; we own that.

The CHAIRMAN. What are you doing with it now?

General HINES. We have various supplies that have been turned over from the War Department and the Navy Department to us, medical supplies that we contemplate selling as soon as the market is favorable for that purpose.

Senator SHORTRIDGE. What is the method of turning over and keeping the records of the veterans of the Spanish-American War, for example?

General HINES. The War Department retains those. Of course, the keeping of them in one department, I think the tendency would be to keep the records of the men of all wars.

Senator SHORTRIDGE. Did you note that, Mr. Chairman, that this refers to the records of the veterans of the World War only? I merely inquired what about the like records of the men of earlier wars; where are they kept?

General HINES. They are still kept in the War Department.

Senator SHORTRIDGE. If they are transferred, why should they not be kept there?

General HINES. We are dealing with these all the time, if it applies to the World War veterans.

Senator WALSH of Massachusetts. Those are mostly dead subjects? General HINES. Yes; and we have not reached the end of the use of these records. The real questions will come later.