Mr. KEEFE. You are speaking in supposition all the time. I am speaking of facts.

Mr. WERTS. I am not familiar with that situation.

Mr. KEEFE. The newspapers carried on the front page this morning all the newspapers did the fact that N. Y. A. was setting up training centers to train Japanese youth, to take them out of the relocation centers and bring them into Minnesota and Iowa and North and South Dakota, and so on, and train them.

Mr. WERTS. I am not familiar with the question as to whether the War Manpower Commission approve those or whether they initiate it. Mr. KEEFE. Who would be charged with the responsibility for initiating such a program? That is what I want to know.

Mr. WERTS. It would work this way: The N. Y. A. and the vocational schools training youth or older workers would first clear with the area director of the War Manpower Commission to determine whether or not, if workers were trained in this particular skill, there were jobs for them, before they would start those training classes.

Two things could happen: They might come to the area director of the War Manpower Commission, who sees the total picture, and say, "We would like to train 50 welders." The area director may know from the information that the Employment Service presents that there is a demand for 50 or only 30, so the advice would be to the N. Y. A., "You can train 30, but do not train 50, because there won't be places for them." Or the N. Y. A. may have had classes training welders, and we find the situation where they are training more than they can place. Therefore we advise them to cut down and train in other directions where we would be in need of them.

Mr. HARE. Mr. Keefe's query was to find out who is responsible for saying to the N. Y. A. or somebody else to train them.

Mr. WERTS. That would be N. Y. A., which stems down from the Chairman.

Mr. KEEFE. "N. Y. A., which stems down from the Chairman"—that is clear as mud to me. It may be clear to you fellows in the technical language that we get before the committee, but what I want to know is that if an N. Y. A. training establishment is established requiring the setting up of a training program somewhere out in the Middle West to train Japanese for entrance into war industries, and pay them salaries and give them subsistence while they are being trained, and all that sort of thing, who is it that is responsible for initiating such a program? Is it Aubrey Williams or is it somebody else?

Mr. A'HEARN. N. Y. A. would make the recommendation, but the regional training man, according to our set-up, would be responsible for approving it. If N. Y. A. is training Japanese, they are American citizens, because he can train only American citizens.

Mr. KEEFE. I myself am not interested in that

Mr. A'HEARN. But, Mr. Keefe, I would like to make this statement. The Executive order which transferred N. Y. A. and Apprentice Training to the War Manpower Commission stated specifically that the Apprentice Training Service and the National Youth Administration shall be preserved as organizational units within the War Manpower Commission.

Mr. KEEFE. That is as I understand it, and they are running their separate outfits.

Mr. A'HEARN. No, sir; they are responsible to the regional training man, and if he is on his job he is reviewing their programs and he is approving their programs under the broad policies enunciated in Washington; and if N. Y. A. says, "We want to train 100 welders," and he thinks that they should not train any welders in that area, he can say to N. Y. A., "No, sir. You cannot train welders. They are not needed in this particular area.”

That is his authority. Whether he exercises it or not is another question.

Mr. KEEFE. I would like to know how you can come in here with justifications for an agency and say, "We are going to train next year 600,000 people." It is planning a year in advance. I do not understand the set-up at all. There are so many cooks in this thing that it looks to me like we are not going to get anywhere with it.

Let me ask another thing. I understand, I think, the legal set-up of the Apprenticeship Training Service. We have had it here year after year. The law is plain. That is all there is to that. It is plain as to what these people do. They work in cooperation with the States. They do not furnish any funds and they do not furnish any training except that they may send in a specialized trainer to some locality that they sell the idea to, which wants such a trainer, and he comes in there and gives them ideas and a sales talk about establishing indentures under State laws for apprenticeship training.

Now, under the vocational system the law provides for the making of grants to the States to maintain vocational education, and the law permits the Office of Education in its vocational grants to set up the framework and pattern under which the grants are to be approved, and States that have approved systems of vocational education have their grants made by the Office of Education. The funds go out to the States and they are expended by the States in carrying on that vocational system.

What do you have to do with that? What has your organization got to do with it?

Mr. WERTS. What you have said is quite correct.

Mr. KEEFE. Dr. Wright comes in here. He is the head of the vocational business in the Office of Education. He is the man, with Dr. Studebaker, in that organization, who has to pass upon the State ap proved plans. Once they are approved, what do you have to do with it? That is what I want to know.

Mr. WERTS. In the process of recommending a course in which the school in Baltimore was set up to train welders, they must be aware of the demand for welders in that area. They could, of course, set up their own staff to go and talk to all the employers, to find out if they need it. They do not do that.

The Employment Service goes to these employers and finds out what their demands are going to be. The information, through the ares director's office, gets to the vocational people, and he says, "You should set up training that will provide so many welders, so many sheet metal workers, so many of this and this"

Mr. KEEFE. After all is said and done, you may give the vocational education system some such information, but I am quite familiar with the vocational education system in my own State and I know how it operates, and I know how it operates in Massachusetts and other

States. I am quite familiar with it, and I cannot for the life of me see where your organization has anything to do with it except that you might furnish a little information occasionally to the State board of vocational education in my State. The local board in my own town operates under State authority, aided by grants of Federal funds.

Mr. WERTS. That is right.

Mr. KEEFE. They have a local school board of vocational education established under State law.

What have you got to do with establishing curricula or telling them what they shall teach or what they shall not teach? That is within the jurisdiction of the local school board of vocational education.

Mr. WERTS. We do not tell them what they shall teach, but we tell them for what kind of skills they shall teach.

Mr. A'HEARN. Of course, Mr. Keefe, under the regular vocational program there is no authority. Just as you say, when that money goes out to the States under an allocation plan which is approved by Congress, then the State spends that money in connection with its vocation training in accordance with broad standards. In other words, they get the money. The money is theirs. But, under the defense training program, there is no specific allocation to any State. Mr. KEEFE. You are talking about the defense-training program. Mr. A'HEARN. That is $100,000,000. That is the part of the vocational program supervised by the Bureau of Training.

Mr. KEEFE. I can see where, in view of the fact that the Federal Government is putting up $100,000,000 for defense training and proposes to utilize wherever possible the facilities of the regularly established vocational education training plants, in order to permit the disbursal of those funds, the Federal Government should have the power and the right to declare the policies of that program; and they so declare, I assume, and control the expenditure of that fund. Mr. WERTS. That is right.

Mr. KEEFE. Now, do I understand you to testify that what you have been saying about the utilization of these area and regional offices of the War Manpower Commission is that the purpose is to obtain information that you can transfer to the Office of Education to assist them in the utilization of this $100,000,000 to the best advantage?

Mr. A'HEARN. Yes; Mr. Hawkins, who is in charge of the program-Mr. Wright is in charge of the regular program-is on the staff of Dr. Charters. Dr. Case, who has the $30,000,000 appropriation in the Office of Education for technical training, is also on the staff of the Bureau of Training.

Mr. THOMAS. May I interrupt right there? Name the four again. Mr. A'HEARN. The estimates before Congress this year are: $100,000,000 for vocational education, national-defense training; $30,000,000 for technical training in short college courses in certain curricula specified in the appropriation act; the third one is $11,500,000 for training of agricultural and other rural workers; then there is a certain amount for visual aids.

Mr. THOMAS. How about the program just passed?

Mr. A'HEARN. That is the regular vocational training program. Mr. THOMAS. How much is that?

Mr. A'HEARN. I do not know. Those regular programs run to some twenty or thirty million dollars.

Mr. THOMAS. In addition to the other one?

Mr. A'HEARN. Yes. Of course, these programs of the Office of Education that Mr. Keefe just developed are based on laws which require the funds to be distributed to States on a formula established by the Congress, and the only responsibility of the Office of Education is to audit records to see that the States spend the money for purposes established by Congress when they passed the acts.

Mr. KEEFE. Here is what I want to know, and I think the Congress would like to know also: Is there any language in the bill appropriating this $100,000,000 which limits its expenditure for use only in the regularly established vocational schools of the country?

Mr. A'HEARN. No, sir. It can be used for some private schools that are exempt

Mr. KEEFE. Then it could not be used to supplement funds, for instance, of the National Youth Administration, and no part of this $100,000,000 could be used to extend the training facilities of the National Youth Administration?

Mr. A'HEARN. No, sir.

Mr. KEEFE. Now, I would like to know just what you do with respect to the Training Within Industry Service.

Mr. WERTS. Exactly the same as we would in terms of a vocational program. In dealing with an employer to solve his manpower problems, we may find that he has an excessive turn-over, and part of that may be because he has bad supervision in his plant. The foremen are not dealing with his workers properly, and they leave because they want to get another job.

In that case the training-within-industry people are called in to assist the foremen to do a better job and thereby cut down turn-over and increase production.

As I indicated before, the area director coordinates the activities of all the agencies to develop a concerted program for a given warproduction employer.

Mr. KEEFE. Do you not think that you are getting this whole situation so bungled up and so complicated with so many and sundry offices scattered all over the country that you are developing an organizational technique here rather than getting down to the business of taking care of training? That is the way it looks to me.

Mr. WERTS. On the contrary, Mr. Congressman. I think we are bringing order out of chaos.

Here is the point. We have the four training agencies, and in the past we tried to operate by taking one of the agencies and making the man from that agency the chairman of the committee. The other three do not take kindly to the other agency's calling signals. Therefore, you have to get an impartial individual with authority to bring them together and say, after reasonable discussion, if you cannot get agreement, "I am sorry, boys. This is it."

Mr. KEEFE. In other words, you have competition between the N. Y. A. and the training-within-industry group and the vocational training group. They are all competing against each other in order to try to get youth to train.

We have had that problem before the committee before. We have on the one hand the academic educators representing the vocationaleducation group within the regularly established channels of education, and then we have the other group represented by the N. Y. A. that is outside. Your idea is that your area director has to call these fellows together and knock their heads together and say, "Now, see here, John. You cannot go to Tom Jones and solicit training in that industry. That is the job of the vocational schools."

You sort of split the work between them and see that they have an equal shot at it so that they can all spend their appropriations? Mr. A'HEARN. No; that is not so.

Mr. HARE. Did I understand you to say, Mr. Werts, that the regional offices of the N. Y. A. have been amalgamated with the regional offices of the War Manpower Commission?

Mr. WERTS. I would not say amalgamated. They work under the direction and general supervision of the regional director. In most cases they have separate quarters and separate offices.

Mr. HARE. How about the Federal Security regional office?
Mr. WERTS. That is completely separate and apart.

Mr. HARE. There is no relationship with them whatever?

Mr. WERTS. They maintain a relationship, because the Federal Security Agency has the community war-services program, which assists communities in getting additional recreational facilities and such community facilities which are required to meet the demand of the war production workers.

So that as we find the manpower problem and the housing problem, we deal with the other agencies to get their assistance; but it is just a liaison relationship. There is no authority of any kind exercised by the War Manpower Commission.

Mr. THOMAS. They are going to train stenographers and everything else in these private business colleges. The business colleges have been writing so many letters. I think this is the cause of it.

I was not present when this was taken up. Is this $100,000,000 fund going to be administered through the regular State set-ups, or is it going to be administered by our friend Hawkins up here?

Mr. A'HEARN. By Mr. Hawkins, but through the regular State set-up.

Mr. HARE. What committee handled your appropriation last year, Mr. Werts?

Mr. WERTS. Mr. A'Hearn, can you answer that?

Mr. A'HEARN. The Deficiency Committee, headed up by Mr. Cannon.

Mr. HARE. Mr. Andersen.

Mr. H. CARL ANDERSEN. The thought comes to my mind that the War Manpower Commission, in all of its ramifications, could nicely establish simply the one set of regional offices for all these various branches of training. Is there not a great field open for economy if all the War Manpower Commission's work throughout America would be delegated simply to the one regional office, and under it the various area offices necessary, rather than the present multitudinous offices that we seem to have?

Mr. WERTS. Well, I would not know to what extent there would be savings if that were done.