is just getting to work. We have been going only about 8 months. We have done not as much as should be done, but we have started.

Mr. TARVER. We have had, or will have, officials of various agencies before us to justify their estimates, and apparently each one is pursuing its own course, and I am wondering if your organization is not a sort of fifth wheel. They submit reports and tell you what they are going to do and go ahead and do it. What do you do about it?

Mr. VAN WYCK. We have approved all of their work projects. Mr. TARVER. Have you disapproved anything; and if so, what? Mr. VAN WYCK. Yes; quite a number, and we have closed up a number of them. That has been going on for some time. We have actually inspected 70 percent of existing work projects more than once; we have inspected practically all of them and have cut them down about 28 percent.

Mr. HARE. Have you said upon what grounds you disapproved these projects?

Mr. VAN WYCK. We have inspection charts with a number of key points that we use when our men go out to evaluate a program, to see whether it is good, fair, or poor. If it is poor it is pulled out. If it is fair it is brought up as far as possible to good.

Mr. HARE. What standard do you require-how do you fix the standards?

Mr. VAN WYCK. They are determined according to accepted standards of vocational education. Shop instruction is based on the industry in which youth are to be employed, or to which they are to be directed. The job in the shop has to be of the industrial type, as far as possible.

As far as possible, related training is provided, and it is also provided that the people should be placed in industry as soon as they can be put into it.

Also, the shops should be utilized as many hours a day as possible so that critical tools and machines shall not be lying idle.

Also, provision is made for public vocational schools to use the shops. and a good deal of that has been done.

Dr. CHARTERS. There is another way in which we are making a contribution to all six agencies. We weld them into an integrated unit. Also, we have regional chiefs of training and area chiefs within the regional organization. There the six agencies become a part of the staff, and what they want to do is passed on by the group. In that way you locate agency activities at points where it should be in and remove them from places where they would not be of service. That is the most constructive thing we have done.

RELATION OF BUREAU TO OFFICE OF EDUCATION PROGRAM IN THE STATES

Mr. HARE. What relationship do you have with the States?
Dr. CHARTERS. With the States in the Office of Education program?
Mr. HARE. Yes.

Dr. CHARTERS. That is handled in this manner. The States propose a program of what they would like to do. That is sent to the Office of Education in Washington and is reviewed and looked to see if it is satisfactory. Then it is sent to us, and on the way to the Bureau of

the Budget, we thus have an opportunity to review the programs and approve or disapprove.

Mr. HARE. I understand that the Office of Education has a cooperative, contractual relationship with the State departments of education in this vocational program.

Dr. CHARTERS. That is right.

Mr. HARE. Will you have such relationships with the State department of education, corresponding with the Office of Education?

Dr. CHARTERS. Only through the Office of Education under our supervision and direction. We have no independent relationship. Mr. HARE. Are you subservient to the Office of Education?

Dr. CHARTERS. It is the other way around. They are under our supervision and direction.

Mr. HARE. You would not have a direct relationship with the State departments of education?

Dr. CHARTERS. Under the law the relationship is that the States propose programs which the Office of Education approves or disapproves. That money goes to the States. The Office of Education in Washington watches to see how things are going.

Mr. HARE. I understand that the States set up programs of vocational education in accordance with the statutes under the SmithHughes Act.

Dr. CHARTERS. No, the War Manpower Commission does not have direction and supervision of Smith-Hughes activities. Ours is the defense program.

Mr. HARE. That program will be set up by the States and submitted to the Office of Education, and if the Office of Education approves that program then it goes to you for further consideration.

Dr. CHARTERS. Under our supervision and direction.

Mr. HARE. You have supervision and direction of that program, independent of the Office of Education?

Dr. CHARTERS. Yes, through them. It seems quite clear to me. Mr. HARE. It may seem clear to you, but it is not exactly clear to me. Dr. CHARTERS. The Office of Education becomes the operator with the States. They are responsible.

Mr. HARE. I understood you to say you have some area or regional offices throughout the country.

Dr. CHARTERS. Yes.

Mr. HARE. That would supervise, direct and collaborate with the States?

Dr. CHARTERS. It comes under the War Manpower direction. The officers of the States and the agencies within the regions draw up a program to cover the region of which the State is a part. That is sent to the regional office of training in the War Manpower Commission and then it comes to the Office of Education and then to us.

Mr. HARE. It seems to me you might have at least a duplication in the administrative power or authority, in that the Office of Education is under the Federal Security Agency, and the Bureau of Training is under the War Manpower Commission. Am I correct in that?

Dr. CHARTERS. No, the War Manpower Commission is the final authority.

Mr. HARE. Did you have this same set-up that you have now, under the Federal Security Administration last year and the year before? Mr. McKONE. Yes, however, without the regional directors.

Mr. HARE. Then the regional directors have been brought up since your transfer from the F. S. A. to the War Manpower Commission? Mr. McKONE. Yes.

Mr. HARE. Does the Office of Education have regional directors and regional offices?

Mr. McKONE. They have regional representatives. They are responsible for the execution of their program at that level of operation. Mr. HARE. I had understood that most of that work is technical. Mr. McKONE. A certain amount of it, and they have a large job. Our job is mostly to see that they are doing the job and to get them in line with other organizations.

Mr. TARVER. I have some question as to the desirability of having such an organization, but it seems to me that matter has been determined by the President through the issuance of his Executive order. You have here a comparatively small staff supposed to supervise these various organizations, each of which has a very much larger program than you have. They have very large amounts of money to spend, and it seems to me the amount of supervision you could give them with this small staff would be of a comparatively minor nature, considering the size of the appropriation, and the programs you are supposed to give supervision to, under the jurisdiction of these six activities, and it seems to me it might be a case of the tail wagging the dog.

Dr. CHARTERS. I can see that. On the other hand, my attitude is one of constructively working with them, getting out necessary directives and materials, and getting them to cooperate. That can be done by a staff that is not as large as if we were doing all the work here ourselves and all of the operating.

Mr. HARE. Do you have full cooperation with the State departments of education?

Dr. CHARTERS. I would say on the Washington level it is all that one can ask for. When we examine the agencies in their work on the periphery the cooperation has not been completely developed. There are jurisdictional disputes here and there. But we have it under control.

Mr. HARE. I have heard some complaint on the part of one of our State departments of education that they did not know exactly who their supervisors are, whether they are the Office of Education or the Bureau of Training.

Dr. CHARTERS. We have made statements about that, but one has to keep on working at the matter. One of the problems of organization is to see that agreements and understandings reach all the members of the team.

Mr. HARE. These State departments of education are not securing any additional funds, except those through Smith-Hughes Act?

Dr. CHARTERS. No; they are getting Smith-Hughes money. But they also secure money for war training in addition to the amount · of $100,000,000.

Mr. HARE. That is the $100,000,000 in what appropriation?

Dr. CHARTERS. The war vocational program in statute 647 under the supervision of the War Manpower Commission.

PERSONAL SERVICES

Mr. HARE. We will insert page 118 of the justifications in the record at this point.

(The statement referred to is as follows:)

Mr. HARE. I note that your appropriation for 1943 was $150,700, and the estimate for 1944 is $203,760, or an increase of $53,060.

I note further that the number of employees or personnel is to be increased from 44 to 60.

Would you mind explaining the necessity for that increase of 16 additional employees?

OFFICE OF THE DIRECTOR

Dr. CHARTERS. In the office of the Director we found need for two additional persons. Last year, when the office was organized, the officers then in charge did not know quite how many people to provide for, and the office of the Director is understaffed. With regard to the office of the Director we need two people to relieve us of the difficulties of correspondence and the large numbers of people we have to meet, and so on.

Mr. HARE. What would be their salary?

Dr. CHARTERS. Their salaries would be $1,800 and $2,000 for the Assistant Director.

Mr. HARE. You mean that you are increasing the salary of the Assistant Director?

Mr. McKONE. No; the Assistant Director is $6,500. The Special Assistant to the Director is $4,600.

There is no increase.

PROCEDURE, PRIORITY, AND ADMINISTRATION

Mr. HARE. Under the subject Procedure, Priority, and Administration I note you have an increase of three employees, and an increase in your estimate of $11,360 over 1943.

Is the increase to pay the salaries of the three employees?

Dr. CHARTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HARE. What are their salaries to be?

Dr. CHARTERS. The salaries will be as follows: The head will receive

$4,600 and his assistant will receive $3,800.

Mr. HARE. What will the other receive?

Mr. McKONE. There will be only one assistant at $3,800.

Mr. HARE. I want to know who the three additional employees will be. You had 10 employees under this subject last year and your estimate this year indicates 13 employees-you are adding 3 employees.

Mr. McKONE. A chief at $4,600, an assistant at $3,800, a secretary to the chief at $1,800, and the balance is for upgrading CAF-2 clerks who have been filling grade three jobs.

Specifically, the procedure, priority and administration service have been brought into one unit and a chief is needed to head that unit.

The Priorities unit is a continuing function. To get equipment and supplies for the training agencies through the W. P. B. the Administrative unit handles the housekeeping function.

The Procedures function is basically one which is directional.

It ties together the activities of three different units and assists the constituent agencies.

For example, the Procedures section will pull together all field orders emanating from the headquarters offices of the several agencies to assure that there is no overlapping or confusion in field instructions and to see that the general over-all picture conforms to the War Manpower Commission policies on training.

Mr. HARE. I thought that program would be set up by States? Mr. McKONE. You are talking about the V. T.-W. P. W. program. I am talking about T. W. I., A. T. S., and the other agencies also. This also pertains to Visual Aids, together with other operations of the Office of Education.

All of these agencies send instructions to the field. Occasionally they do not compliment each other.

Mr. HARE. Who was your Director, or head man, in "Procedure, Priority, and Administration" last year when you had 10 persons?

Mr. McKONE. Like some other functions, Mr. Chairman, this was largely done through a makeshift system because of our inadequate staff. Whichever man had time to do the job, got it.

Mr. HARE. You did not have a chief?

Mr. McKONE. No.

Mr. HARE. You had no one over the 10 persons?

Mr. McKONE. The people in the office would take on the function when time would permit.

The function has grown so large that we have got to have unit effort now.

Dr. CHARTERS. The Priorities group had one man at its head, Mr. Flaherty.

"Administration" had no man at its head, and "Procedures" was scattered all over the place.

Now, by getting them together, in a unit, we can do more effective work.

Mr. HARE. The Chief is to receive a salary of $4,600 per year?
Mr. McKONE. Yes.

Mr. HARE. The Assistant Chief is to receive $3,800 per year?
Mr. McKONE. Yes.

Mr. HARE. The remainder of the money is to be used for clerks?
Mr. McKONE. Clerical and junior administrative work.

Mr. HARE. That is, two persons with total salaries of $8,400 are to supervise and direct 11 persons. Is that correct?

Mr. McKONE. That is correct.