REVISION OF ESTIMATE

Mr. COLLINS. We are asking to revise the estimate and eliminate the increase of $7,000 altogether. Since the estimate was submitted, it developed that the $600 requested for transportation of things would not be sufficient to cover the cost of transporting household effects of employees upon change of station. Our general counsel estimates that due to turnover of personnel, the transportation of household effects of attorneys may run as high as $2,700 during 1944. We discussed the need for the additional funds with the Bureau of the Budget a few days ago and decided to adjust the entire estimate for miscellaneous expenses in the light of existing conditions. This we did by eliminating entirely the request for $7,000 additional and reducing the other objects of expenditure in an amount sufficient to provide $1,200 in excess of that available this year for transportation of things. It was possible to do this because of the uncertainty of equipment being available and by adopting tentatively certain plans which would eliminate entirely the need for additional funds for rents and utilities.

Mr. TARVER. Mr. Chairman, I want to suggest that this revised estimate be inserted in the record in comparison with the original estimate.

Mr. HARE. All right. In place of the original estimate

Mr. TARVER. I think they both ought to go in, Mr. Chairman. The estimate originally was $35,000 for rents and utilities, and this revised estimate decreases that item by $5,800. I want to know why a mistake of that kind was made, if it was a mistake, and just what has motivated the revision.

Mr. HARE. The Chair will state at this point that in addition to the original estimate set out on page 313 of the justifications we will have the revised estimate submitted at this point, as page 313, in which the appropriation for 1943 is $80,000 and the estimate for 1944 is $80,000.

(The matter referred to is as follows:)

Miscellaneous expenses, Office of Administrator, Federal Security Agency Regular appropriation, 1943 act_.

Supplemental appropriations for 1943___

$80,000

RENTAL OF TABULATING EQUIPMENT

Mr. COLLINS. We had an estimate prepared at the end of last summer which we submitted to the Bureau of the Budget for inclusion in the regular Budget, asking $5,800 as an increase in rents and utilities, to be used for tabulating equipment. It develops now that additional tabulating equipment will be almost impossible to obtain, and that some of the work that we contemplated doing with that equipment need not be undertaken. Tabulating equipment has been used very largely in connection with war work, and this has limited the amount of such equipment available to the civilian branches. When I talked to the Bureau of the Budget about this need for an increase in the item "Transportation of things," we discussed these other items in the light of our situation today, including the difficulties we had in obtaining equipment, supplies, and this tabulating equipment. We decided to take out this item of $5,800 and to come before this committee and state the reasons for our action.

Mr. HARE. Can you not rent tabulating equipment?

Mr. COLLINS. Rented tabulating equipment must be conserved. We use the equipment for preparing notices to employees of salary earning, tax deductions, efficiency ratings, and for certain accounting statements for the Social Security Board and the Office of the Adminis

trator.

Since some of the employees of the Board moved to Baltimore, they can use the equipment in that city.

We had an item of $1,325 additional for equipment. That was in part to equip some of the new employees we are asking for the general counsel and the Chief Clerk. Due to smaller number of personnel under the 48 hour week, some old equipment will be available for use when replacements are made under the lower personnel ceiling. That is why we took out the money for equipment.

Mr. HARE. When did the necessity for the increase in the item for transportation of things develop?

Mr. COLLINS. It developed on February 5, 1943.

Mr. TARVER. Why should the necessity for funds for this purpose be three times what was originally estimated?

Mr. COLLINS. The only item that we had in connection with transportation of things was in connection with the movement of attorneys. Formerly there were very few transfers of attorneys. Recently, we incurred an obligation in excess of $700 in connection with the transfer of the regional attorney from Denver to Washington. That caused me to ask how many more shifts we were going to have, and the general counsel gave me this memorandum dated February 5, 1943:

I believe that $2,700 will cover the cost of moving the household goods of the employees of this office during the fiscal year 1944, but I should not like to be held to that estimate in the event that the turning over of personnel into the military service might necessitate the transfer of additional employees.

You see, here was something that was completely inactive, and then the turn-over of employees brought new expense factors.

Mr. THOMAS. When a person's service in the Bureau is terminated by virtue of the fact that he is going into the armed services, do you pay for the transportation of things back to his legal residence?

Mr. COLLINS. No, sir; we do not. It is only upon a change of station. In a change of station, the transfer requires the approval of the head of the Department.

TRAVELING EXPENSES, OFFICE OF ADMINISTRATOR

Mr. HARE. We will turn to page 317-A of the justifications, the item of traveling expenses, Federal Security Agency, and direct your attention to the appropriation of $7,894 for the immediate office in 1943, and the request for $7,894 for 1944.

Mr. COLLINS. That travel covers the traveling costs of the assistants to the Administrator, the Administrator when he travels on Federal Security Agency business, and the members of the budget staff when they go out to field stations.

Mr. HARE. Do you contemplate that you will have as much travel this year as last year?

Mr. COLLINS. As far as we can forecast at this time, we will. We hope to get the budget people out in the field during next year more than they have been out this year.

PRINTING AND BINDING, OFFICE OF THE ADMINISTRATOR

Mr. HARE. The next item, on page 321 of the justifications, is "Printing and binding, Federal Security Agency." I understand that this item of $20,683 for 1943, with an estimate of $20,000 for 1944, a decrease of $683, is primarily for the office of the Administrator; is that correct?

Mr. COLLINS. Yes, sir. This is for forms of all kinds, about the same as we have been using in past years.

Mr. HARE. It is for tabulating cards

Mr. COLLINS. Tabulating cards, voucher forms, and printed forms of all kinds.

Mr. HARE. I note you have a break-down of the number of copies. or units printed in 1942 on page 322 of the justifications. Is that correct?

Mr. COLLINS. That is correct.

Mr. THOMAS. I notice you have letterheads and printed stationery, 525,000. What does that mean? You have 470,000 for 1944 and 525,000 for 1943.

Mr. MCCAULEY. That is the printed stationery.

Mr. THOMAS. Whom is it for?

Mr. MCCAULEY. It is for the entire office of the Administrator, including the General Counsel's office, the Personnel Division, and the Chief Clerk's Division.

Mr. THOMAS. I understand that this printing and binding item for the Federal Security Agency is $1,000,000, and of that $20,000 goes to the Administrator's office; is that correct?

Mr. MCCAULEY. That is correct.

Mr. THOMAS. Now, how could the Administrator use 525,000 letterheads for 1943?

Mr. MCCAULEY. We had more than 400 employees, Mr. Thomas. It includes both letterheads and printed forms.

Mr. THOMAS. What do you mean by printed forms?

Mr. MCCAULEY. Letterheads and printed stationery.

Mr. THOMAS. To be used in his work?

Mr. MCCAULEY. Yes, sir. Some general instructions go down the line, and we have to print as high as 20,000 of them.

Mr. THOMAS. In other words, this fund is a fund that is used by the Administrator to go to the various component units making up the Social Security Agency?

Mr. MCCAULEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. COLLINS. Where the item is to be printed on the Administrator's stationery.

Mr. MCCAULEY. The usual instructions call for 900, but when we go to the employees they may be as high as 20,000.

Mr. HARE. The total number, as I have noticed, for last year is 4,995,000 copies. That calls for $20,000?

Mr. MCCAULEY. That is right.

Mr. HARE. Thank you very much, gentlemen.

TUESDAY, MAY 11, 1943.

APPRECIATION OF SERVICE OF MAURICE COLLINS

Mr. HARE. We have for consideration this morning the appropriations for the Office of the Administrator, Federal Security Agency, and we have with us the Executive Assistant to the Administrator, Mr. Collins, and some of his associates.

I might say that I have just learned, indirectly, that probably this will be the last time we will have Mr. Collins before us, representing the Federal Security Agency, because it is reported or rumored that he will leave the Federal Security Agency and go to the Veterans' Administration.

If that is correct, I would like to say for the record that for the last 3 years, since I have been associated on this committee with the other members, and Mr. Collins has appeared before us, it has been a great pleasure to be associated with him because he has always proven to be very fair, accurate, frank, and thoroughly reliable in all of his estimates, and I regret very much, Mr. Collins, that we will part company with you for a while, after this morning."

Mr. COLLINS. I thank you very much.

Mr. ENGEL. May I add a word, Mr. Chairman. I understand Mr. Collins is going back to his first love, the Veterans' Administration, with which he was associated for 17 years. I am informed that Mr. Collins was one of those who helped to organize and get the Veterans' Administration started.

Mr. COLLINS. That is right.

Mr. ENGEL. He served there 17 years when he was called to the Treasury Department, first, and then to the Bureau of the Budget, and later to the Federal Security Agency.

I want the record to show that my first contact with Mr. Collins was about 4 years ago this fall, when I first learned that this subcommittee was to have charge of the appropriation for the Federal Security Agency, containing something like a billion dollars. 1 felt that I did not have any information regarding these different agencies or bureaus under the Federal Security Agency. I had no knowledge of them and was absolutely at a loss. I did not want to sit on one side of the table and look wise and take somebody else's work as to what an appropriation should be. So I decided to go through the

divisions and bureaus which made up the Federal Security Agency, and also the other agencies included in the bill, such as the Labor Department.

I called Governor McNutt and told him what I wanted to do in connection with the agencies included in the bill, and asked him to assign someone to me who would take me around and give me information regarding the various agencies. Mr. McNutt assigned Mr. Collins to me, Mr. Collins then being the budget officer of the Federal Security Agency, who was called upon to set up the budget for the agency and get the agency started.

I spent something like 6 weeks going through the various bureaus and divisions in the Federal Security Agency, and I found that Mr. Collins was helpful. We went through those organizations and he put his cards on the table. So when I came to the hearings on the bill I felt that I had some real information and could make some contribution toward solving some of the problems which we faced in the bill, which was before the committee for the first time.

I am perfectly frank to say that I formed a friendship with Mr. Collins which has survived through the years since then, and I am sure will last through the years when we are in Washington together.

During the more than 3 years since that first bill came before us, Mr. Collins has appeared before the committee here and he has given us information and has been helpful, and not only helpful, but he has been a real factor in assisting this committee to keep down some of these costs, to cut the costs where they should be cut, and yet leave the different branches with sufficient funds to operate, where they could not be cut.

We have in the Government thousands and thousands of employees, officials, whose names never appear in the newspapers, rendering a wonderful service and saving the Government millions and millions of dollars.

Of those employees, from the top down, with some, naturally, more efficient than others, I would say that among those who have made their contribution to the operation of the United States Government, with its expenditure of millions and millions of dollars, Mr. Collins' name stands right at the top. I want to express my regret that Mr. Collins will not be with us any longer. I know I am going to miss him.

A good many times when I felt we should cut an item, Mr. Collins, you have advanced arguments why that item should not be cut, and many times I have found that I was wrong and you were right.

At other times, when we saw items that should be cut, you have come before us and laid your cards on the table. I think if we had more Government officials who would give us that kind of help, the task of every subcommittee which handles appropriations would be a great deal easier.

So, today, I want to express my personal appreciation and join with the chairman in thanking you for the service you have rendered, not only to this committee but to the country as a whole.

Mr. COLLINS. I thank you very much.

Mr. TARVER. Mr. Chairman, as the first chairman of the Subcommittee on the Department of Labor and Federal Security Agency appropriations bill, I wish to add to what has been said by yourself and Mr. Engel's statement, that during some 16 and more years in