By the provisions of article 1 of the Constitution the people of the United States have retained to themselves for exercise by the Congress as their chosen representatives, an absolute control over the raising of all revenues and the application of such revenues for the public good. They have retained the right to say what each revenue shall be, how it shall be levied, how it shall be collected, to provide the agencies through which it shall be levied and collected, and the manner in which an accounting therefor shall be made. They have retained the right to say how those revenues shall be appropriated, to provide the agencies through which they may be spent, to impose such restrictions on spending as shall be for the public good, and to prescribe the manner in which an accounting for such expenditures shall be made. These powers and responsibilities are imbedded deeply in our political system. They cannot be alienated, nor should the rigid control which they now impose be, in any respect, relaxed.

In connection with the argument of the committee that the settlement of accounts and the supervision of administrative accounting systems are executive rather than legislative functions. I earnestly commend to the committee the statements made by the Comptroller General in his annual report for the fiscal year 1926, under the caption Congressional Control over Public Money.

On pages 44 and 45 of the report the committee alleges that the General Accounting Office has extended its authority into administrative matters by the expansion of the preaudit. In the light of a proper understanding of what constitutes a preaudit, the views of the committee cannot be supported.

The General Accounting Office did not take the initiative in extending the preaudit action. Such action has been taken only at the request and for the protection of the administrative and accountable officers involved. The origin of preaudit was the Dockery Act of 1894. Such act did not give to the accounting officers any right, on their own motion, to institute a preaudit. It conferred on the accounting officers the right to preaudit only when administrative officers made requests therefor. As has been previously pointed out, preaudit had its inception in requests for advance decisions. The advantages secured by administrative officers were quckly appreciated by such officers, and from time to time the demands therefor increased. At present some administrative officers are having all of their accounts preaudited, not because the General Accounting Office sought to extend its authority into administrative matters but because some well-intentioned administrative officers of the Government have had the wisdom and the foresight to avail themselves of the protection afforded them under the law. If there is to be any criticism whatever of the preaudit method of settling accounts it seems to me that it should be from the standpoint that the practice be made generally effective. The annual reports of the Comptroller General for the fiscal years 1926, 1927, and later years have advised the Congress regarding the preaudit and pointed out the demonstrated advantages to administrative officers. The statements contained in such reports are worthy of very serious consideration at this time.

The committee further reports (p. 46) that the General Accounting Office has failed to achieve an independent audit of national expenditures and has not supplied the Congress with the comprehensive information concerning the financial administration of the Government which an audit should render.

It is not felt necessary to comment upon the statement of the committee contained in this regard further than to state that the fallacy of such statement will be apparent if this committee will read the annual report of the Comptroller General for the fiscal year 1932 under the caption Reports and review the index made a part of this statement.

Now, the General Accounting Office was not asked to testify regarding the criticisms made of the Office by the President's committee but rather to state its views regarding Senate bill 2700. The said committee was afforded ample opportunity to discuss and to emphasize its criticisms and to expound and to stress its theories. It seems only fair, not only to the General Accounting Office and its staff, who have undertaken during the past 15 years faithfully to discharge their duty as they saw it, but to this committee and to the Congress that there be incorporated in the record on which Senate bill 2700 will be considered a specific response to every criticism made. The subject matter is of sufficient national importance to justify very searching and deliberate consideration. The proposal shifts to the executive branch of the Government a power which that branch has not heretofore had and the reasons for making such shift are not found alone in the theory-which incidently is not proven-that under the Constitution the power sought to be transferred is an Executive power. I urge more searching inquiry into the criticisms made and into the reasons advanced for effecting the change sought by the bill.

The index requested to some of the recommendations contained in the annual reports of the Comptroller General of the United States is as follows:

Accounts, rendition of: Proposed an amendment of sec. 12 of the Dockery Act of
July 31, 1894 (28 Stat. 209), as amended by the act of Mar. 2, 1895 (28 Stat. 807),
in order to facilitate the prompt and accurate rendition and settlement of ac-
counts..
Advance payments in foreign countries: Recommended legislation authorizing all
Federal agencies operating in foreign countries to pay in advance for foreign services
or supplies where laws and customs of such countries require it; existing laws au-
thorized a few specified agencies only to do so..
Appropriations, simplification of: Suggested change in the manner of making appro-
priations by adopting the detailed statement of Budget estimates after finally re-
vised by the Congress and made ready for such adoption, and informative com-
ments on appropriation control..

Appropriation-supervision: Revision of appropriation methods with a view to
securing to the legislature a more effective supervision..
Automobile tags: Furnishing of United States tags for Government-owned auto-
mobiles.

Bonds of fiscal officers: Recommended a uniform law with respect to the bonds of
fiscal officers..

Building, General Accounting Office: Called attention to need of a separate building
for the Office and recommended early construction of the same.
Claims against the United States: A simplified procedure for settling..
Compensation, Federal personnel, for official time devoted to private or quasi-public
matters: Recommended legislation legalizing existing quasi-public activities so
as to fix duties and obligations of Government in respect to such activities and
remove any doubt as to the financial transactions involved, including right of
Federal personnel participating to draw compensation therefor...
Compensation of United States commissioners: Recommending that United States
commissioners be placed upon a salary rather than a fee basis by pointing out
advantages gained due to recent change made with reference to certain Depart-
ment of Justice accounts..

Conservation of personal estates: Conservation of personal estates of American citizens dying within consulates....

Consular invoice lists, forwarding of, to General Accounting Office: Recommended, in interest of economy, the repeal of sec. 4213, Revised Statutes, as amended, which requires "a statement of all certified invoices" (consular) be forwarded to General Accounting Office.

Contingent expenses: That language in contingent appropriations be more uniform.
Contracts-open-market purchases: Elimination of provisions for liquidated damages
in open-market purchase agreements....

Corporations, government by: Elimination of exceptions to the requirement that ac-
counts be audited by General Accounting Office..
Corporations-nonaccounting for Federal moneys: Again recommended that all Fed-
eral corporations be required to render accounts of public funds entrusted to them....
Courts-copies of decisions of courts: Legislation proposed to require the clerks of
courts to account for sums collected for copies of decisions of courts supplied to law-
book publishers and others..

Customs and internal revenue: That the General Accounting Office be given further
authority in the matter of collections and refunds of customs duties and internal

revenue.

Disbursing officers: That the power to authorize disbursing officers and agents to
carry cash in their possession be transferred from the Secretary of the Treasury to
the Comptroller General; draft of bill submitted..
Disbursing officers-differences appearing in the accounts: Due to the large differ-
ences appearing in the accounts of disbursing officers generally, it was recommended
that there should be regulations fixing the maximum of said differences that might
accrue.

Disbursing officers, relief of: Suggested that where crediting, validating, or relief legis-
lation is presented to Congress in cases where credits for payments by disbursing
officers have been disallowed, the General Accounting Office be given the opportun-
ity of presenting the pertinent facts in its possession in order that Congress may be
fully informed.

Disbursing system: Presents defects in disbursing system and recommends establishment of an independent disbursing agency reducing from 2,000 disbursing agents to approximately 50..

Disposition of unclaimed effects of persons dying subject to military law: Custody of
effects of persons dying subject to military law be transferred from General Account-
ing Office to the Soldiers' Home..

Fees of Federal claim agents and others: Attention of the Congress was invited to the
inadequacy of existing general legislation on the subject of restrictive fees to claim
attorneys, agents, etc., and the need for the enactment of superseding general legis-
lation in which minimum and maximum fees payable would be prescribed.
Funds-Federal prisoners: Report as to system for accounting for funds of Federal
prisoners and commissary and welfare activity funds; suggested for consideration of
Congress whether funds of prisoners should be used to maintain commissaries, or
whether excess welfare funds at one prison may be transferred to another prison...
Funds, quasi-public: Recommended that the General Accounting Office be authori-
zed to make an independent audit of funds, of a more or less private character, held
in trust by agents of the United States, for certain purposes or for disbursement in
the conduct of activities not directly covered by existing laws, and for the receipt
and proper application of which agents of the United States have assumed responsi-
bility.

1926

1927
1929

1931

Subject matter

General supply fund for field services: Increased economics would result if all estab-
lishments would use the advantages of centralized purchasing through the general
supply fund, Treasury Department, and that departments and agencies should be
required to use the general supply fund for supplies for the field services
Holidays and Sundays: Recommended the enactment of 1 general law covering pay,
single, double, overtime, and compensatory time, etc., of civilian Federal personnel
for holidays and Sundays to replace some 23 provisions of law now in effect relating
thereto.

Indian tribal claims jurisdictional statutes: Recommended standardization of such
statutes in the interest of uniformity and to include right of set-off, several such
existing statutes not providing therefor.
Injunction and mandamus suits: Recommended that legislation should be passed
prohibiting injunction and mandamus proceedings against accounting and disburs-
ing officers of the Government, and requiring that all actions be by ordinary suit so
that cases could be tried on their merits..

Military Academy-contingent funds: Moneys in this fund derived from use of public
property and expended for public purposes; recommended legislation requiring
accounting therefor through General Accounting Office instead of to Secretary of
War..

Motor-carrier travel: Due to the fact that autobus lines are being used extensively for
Federal travel it was recommended that thought be given toward the enactment of
a law requiring the preparing, filing, and posting of tariffs..
Motortruck needs of Government: Substantial savings, better equipment to be had,
and industry benefited by more comprehensive specifications for motortrucks show-
ing actual needs of the Government; permitting free and full competitive bidding,
and eliminating "personal preference" discriminations..

Oaths of office of Federal personnel: Recommended that a uniform law be enacted in
connection with taking and subscribing to the oath of office on each change of duty,
this recommendation made in the interest of economy and to prevent loss of time by
employees in retaking oath upon each change of duty.
Outstanding liabilities: Recommended that Congress give consideration to the enact-
ment of legislation which would remove existing irreconcilable inconsistencies in
outstanding check and warrant liabilities procedures, and produce such a stand-
ardized check and warrant negotiability limit, covering in, and claims allowance
procedure..

Payment of Federal moneys to States and Territories-Simplification of procedure:
Allotments be certified by administrative authorities directly to General Account-
ing Office instead of via Treasury Department; eliminates unnecessary expense and
delay and produces equivalent result; proposed bill included...
Public moneys in banks: Recommend that legislation be enacted requiring that Fed-
eral and quasi-Federal funds be carried in accounts maintained with the Treasurer
of the United States and that all receipts of such Federal and quasi-Federal funds be
promptly deposited in the Treasury by check or warrant drawn to the United States
and that all disbursements from such funds be by check or warrant on the United
States.

Refunds by United States of small amounts: Recommended legislation requiring
small amounts-not over $1-remitted to United States in excess of amount due, be
considered as balancing account to prevent substantial and improper drain upon
Treasury in cost of refunding such excess remittances...
Registry funds-United States district courts: Recommended existing law be amend-
ed and supplemented to require deposit of all funds known as registry funds into
Treasury of United States instead of banks to avoid possibility of loss and to pro-
vide proper audit and accounting record..

Retirement of personnel: Recommendation for uniform retirement of Federal per-
sonnel as of the 1st day of the month to simplify accounting and computation of
pay and retirement deductions...

Returns Office: That the Returns Office be transferred from the Labor Department to the General Accounting Office; draft of bill submitted.

Revolving funds, consolidation of: Suggests that if certain revolving funds of pur-
chasing activities were consolidated, increased economics would result.
Sale of publications: Suggested discontinuance of out-of-date issues and those of little
value in interest of economy, and elimination of duplication in distribution and
sales

Special reports: Specific reference made to special reports during the fiscal year 1932
Subsistence expenses: Uniform per diem in lieu of actual expenses..
Tax on gasoline: Prohibition of payment of indirect State tax on gasoline.
Transportation matters: That a traffic organization be established, its duties includ-
ing the attaching of excessive rates before the Interstate Commerce Commission...
United States Shipping Board Merchant Fleet Corporation: Recommended legisla-
tion requiring that this Corporation be made subject to same statutory require-
ments in the audit of its accounts as are other agencies of the Government; also that
savings be effected by the United States carrying its own shipping insurance.
Vessels of American registry, use of: Recommended provisions of sec. 601 of Merchant
Marine Act, 1928, requiring officers and employees of United States to travel on
vessels under American registry, when available, except where necessary to use
vessel under foreign registry, be extended to all agencies and to include tranporta-
tion of property..

Welfare and recreational activities: Recommended that Congress consider the entire
welfare and recreational problem, due to the large number of activities involved,
such as the operation of cafeterias, tourists camps, newsstands, boot black, etc.,
with a view to requiring an examination of their fiscal transactions by a Govern-
ment agency--

REORGANIZATION OF THE GOVERNMENT AGENCIES

THURSDAY, AUGUST 12, 1937

SENATE SELECT COMMITTEE ON
GOVERNMENT ORGANIZATION,
Washington, D. C.

The committee met, Senator James F. Byrnes presiding.
The CHAIRMAN. The committee will come to order. Secretary
Ickes.

STATEMENT OF HON. HAROLD L. ICKES, SECRETARY OF THE INTERIOR

Here

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Secretary, we have before us S. 2700. tofore I noted that you submitted to Senator Robinson a letter in response to his request. In your letter you set forth your views with reference to the bill. If you desire at this time to make any statement as to anything that has been testified to we would be delighted to hear you.

Secretary ICKES. Mr. Chairman, and members of the committee, I appreciate this opportunity. I would have been content to stand on that letter, but it seems that a great many gentlemen have been interested in the particular phases of this bill which apply to, or are intended to apply to my department. So many statements have been made, iterated and reiterated, that I thought I would like to appear and make a brief informal statement.

It has struck me as being curious that so many people representing different interests in different parts of the country should have become so excited about changing the name of the Department of the Interior to the Department of Conservation, as is proposed by this bill. It is like insisting on naming the neighbor's baby.

You will remember at the last session of the Congress the Senate, without any opposition, passed a bill to change the name of the Department of the Interior to that of the Department of Conservation.

Why should not we have a Department of Conservation? More particularly, why should people from Wall Street to the farms object to having a Department of Conservation? I say frankly if I did not believe in conservation I would not want a Department of Conservation, and I think the burden is distinctly upon any man who opposes the creation of any such department to prove that he is a conservationist.

The exploiters of our natural resources so far have found this kind of a situation: There are overlapping, jealousies, and unnecessary

expenses, because the various conservation activities have been scattered among different departments of the Government.

Statements, which seem to me palpably absurd, have been made a number of times, especially by former Governor Pinchot of Pennsylvania, who is the spearhead of a campaign of propaganda which is Nation-wide, seeking to prevent the setting up in a department of conservation the conservation activities of the Government, or, at any rate, those which appear to the President and Congress as being appropriate to set up in such a department. They argue, if you please, that creating a department of conservation will have the tendency to scatter conservation activities. Well, they are scattered now. They could not be scattered any more than they are at present. We have the Department of the Treasury; we have the Department of Agriculture; we have various other departments which, within their fields, deal with cognate subjects.

What does the Department of the Interior mean, after all? In its widest significance, it means everything within the boundaries of the United States. It means everything except the State Department, but, in effect, it is meaningless.

"Conservation" has come to be one of the major concerns of government. There is nothing more important. Our lives and our welfare as a nation depend upon the prudent use of our natural resources, saving what we can for future generations, preserving, building them up, but using as we go along what we really need to maintain and advance our civilization. That is conservation, as I see it. There is nothing more important. We ought to recognize it as a major function of government, and I think, if we once do that we will have taken the greatest forward step toward the preservation and conservation of our natural resources that the Government has ever taken. I regret that it seems necessary to combat this argument which has been so assiduously advanced by so many people.

It seems clear to me that someone is interested in building up propaganda. This is not news to members of the United States Congress, it is nothing new, I mean, to them to find their desks covered with more or less form letters, telegrams, and petitions whenever certain activities of the Government are mentioned.

Now, it gets down to this reality in the end-and this question is involved as well-whether we are going to be governed by a lobby or whether questions affecting the welfare of the people and the sound conduct of our Government are to be guided by a rule of reason. Mr. Pinchot has been several weeks in the West viciously attacking the Department of the Interior. If he and others had their way there would not even be a Department of the Interior. They would wipe us out. They would put us on the block, and they would not even give us the benefit of clergy before bumping us off. They seem to be forever against the notion that anyone should set up a department of conservation and concentrate within that department the main conservation activities of the Government.

I want to make perfectly clear that I do not have the slightest idea, if this bill passes, what the President would bring into the proposed new department, or what he would take away from the proposed new department. If he has committed himself on that subject to anyone I do not know of it; certainly he has not to me. I do know that he had general powers of rearranging and of transfer for, I think, 3 months, was it not, under the Emergency Act?