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The CHAIRMAN. Mr. McClure, may I make a statement in that connection? We have had several witnesses appear with reference to the same phase of this bill to which you desire to address yourself. Mr. MCCLURE. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. This committee, for your information, I will say has not considered any proposal to transfer Forestry, or any bureau, to any place. Therefore, although we have listened to several witnesses going into the details of the work of the Agriculture Department and the Interior Department, this committee will make no decision as to that matter at all. The only provision in this bill is the power of the President, not only as to Forestry but as to any executive bureau, to make a transfer.

Mr. MCCLURE. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, as I understand your position, you do not want the Congress to give the President that power because you fear that in the exercise of that power he might, among other things, transfer Forestry now under Agriculture to Interior. Is that correct?

Mr. MCCLURE. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. That is the story everybody who shares your views presents to us, and we know, from our long experience with the committees of Congress, particularly those on this committee who serve on the Appropriations Committee, the power of the Department of Agriculture, its functions, how much money that Department has, and all of those facts.

Mr. MCCLURE. You probably know that a great deal better than I do, Senator.

The CHAIRMAN. The only question is whether or not the Congress itself should undertake to merge bureaus here, and whether we should give the power to the Fresident. This bill does not propose for Congress to merge them but gives the power to the President. would be glad to hear your views on that question.

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Mr. McCLURE. Senator, what we should like to request is that paragraph 4, section 2, be amended to read: "that nothing in this subsection shall be construed to authorize the President to abolish or transfer to any other agency any of the functions exercised by the Forest Service, the Bureau of Biological Survey, or the Soil Conservation Service of the Department of Agriculture."

The CHAIRMAN. Of course, I know the reason for that. You oppose it being transferred from the Department of Agriculture, but if such an amendment were placed in the bill it would meet your objections? Mr. MCCLURE. Yes. That particular phrase is all we would like to insert in there. We have also an amendment in reference to one or two other departments or bureaus, you know.

The CHAIRMAN. The Mississippi River Commission and the engineers are specified. You would like to have the engineer corps, or the Mississippi River Commission.

Mr. MCCLURE. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. You would like to have a specific provision that the President should not have the power to transfer Forestry, or the Biological Survey from the Department of Agriculture, is that right? Mr. MCCLURE. Yes; Mr. Senator, I hope you realize that we do not have any personal ax to grind at all. It is just an association of people who chip in their money. Our membership fee is $4 a year all over the United States, purely because they are interested in preserving the forests.

I would like to say this at this time: I think the Forest Service has done a swell job of administration of the national forests in this country, just as I think the National Park Service has done a grand job of administering the national parks. We are interested in both of these departments.

The CHAIRMAN. I know your interest is purely an impersonal one. You come here because of your interest in forestry.

Mr. MCCLURE. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Of course the controversy between the two departments has gone along, to my certain knowledge, for 25 years. Mr. MCCLURE. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. You and I are familiar with it.

Mr. MCCLURE. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. As I understand it, your only fear is that if the President were given the power he might exercise it in transferring the Forestry and Biological Survey to the Interior, and you do not think it would be to the best interests of the country.

Mr. MCCLURE. That is it, Mr. Chairman, which we have been so jealous about, contributing our time and money to it.

The CHAIRMAN. You have the same view as to soil conservation? Mr. McCLURE. Yes. Soil conservation I cannot but feel belongs right in the Department of Agriculture, because most of the soil conservation in this country must be done on the farm. I know you are familiar with our condition in the Southeastern States, where soil conservation is perhaps the most important program that we have in order to build up the people in the southeastern part of the United States. The CHAIRMAN. Of course you recall that in 1933 the President was given the power, under the amendment to the so-called Economy Act, to transfer the bureaus and he could have transferred Forestry from Agriculture to the Interior, but he did not do it.

Mr. MCCLURE. Yes. We are only coming in because we are jealous about the natural resources of this country. For 61 years our organization has been trying to develop them, and we just want to go on record as to our viewpoint on this matter and we would like to have your committee give it the fullest consideration.

The CHAIRMAN. We assure you that we will do so. I hope, if you have a memorandum prepared, that you will present it to us, so that we can print it in full.

Mr. McCLURE. I will do that.

The CHAIRMAN. If you have any statement to make in addition to what you have said, we will be glad to hear it.

Mr. McCLURE. Those are the main things. I think our forests must, more and more, be considered as a crop. I know in the Southeastern States we are trying to develop that idea. I just came from a meeting of our National Forestry Association held in conjunction with the State farm departments, because with the pulp industry moving into the South, opening a wonderful market for pulpwood, there is the danger that the farmer will clean-cut his land and lose his birthright, whereas if he cut the thinnings and the right trees and has a sustained yield, he will have an income all the years of his life, and will be able to hand down something to his children. It conserves the soil. The way the thing is set up at present, we have 44 extension foresters in the country, men working with the land-grant colleges, and it is also well hooked up with the Department of Agricul

ture. These State extension foresters are really doing a swell job, they are arousing the farmers' minds in our section of the country to the possibilities of preserving and having a sustained yield on the farmer's wood lot.

The farm forests in the Southeastern States are larger in area than any other crop that we have got. In our mountain sections it is a very important crop of our farm economy. There is more pride in farm forests among our people than in national forests.

Senator TOWNSEND. I understood you to say that you are head of a cooperative organization, the Farmers' Cooperative Association. What crops do you handle?

Mr. MCCLURE. Senator, we handle every crop we can raise. It is a region of small farms. In the North Carolina area we handle chickens for them, eggs, vegetables, all kinds of forest products from rhododendrons to zinnias, fencing, pulpwood, acid wood, corn, wheat, sweet potatoes, and apples. We haven't any big commodities, you know, like oranges or wheat. Our farmers are very small farmers. The average income of our farmers is less than $100 a year per family. That is the net cash income. We are trying to develop the income of those people.

Senator TOWNSEND. You say the net cash income is only $100 a year?

Mr. MCCLURE. The net cash income per family in the mountain section is less than $100 a year, and what we are trying to do is to develop crops and develop the marketing of crops so they will get more money.

Senator TOWNSEND. That is a very surprising statement to me. Mr. McCLURE. I can give you the exact statement made by the Tax Commission's report for the State of North Carolina in 1929. They tried to show how much of the tax burden fell on different sections of the State, and in the mountain sections of the State they found that the average net cash income per farm family was $86 a year. I think it is one of the most startling facts that I know of. That is what we are interested in, trying to increase that, trying to develop crops and marketing. We are trying to find markets for them. We think we can increase that income to at least $500 a year. Thank you, gentlemen, very much.

SUPPLEMENTARY STATEMENT OF JAMES G. K. MCCLURE, JR.

This bill and the report of the President's Committee on Administrative Management in the Government of the United States as transmitted to Congress on January 12 have been studied by the directors of the American Forestry Association, and as the president and representative of the association, I respectfully recommend that paragraph 4b of section 2, defining the power of the President be amended to read that "Nothing in subsection (a) shall be construed to authorize the President to abolish or transfer to any other agency any of the functions exercised by the Forest Service, the Bureau of Biological Survey, or the Soil Conservation Service of the Department of Agriculture."

I am the president of the American Forestry Association, an association of people from all parts of the United States who are genuinely interested in preserving and maintaining the physical resources of this country. The American Forestry Association was organized 61 years ago when there were no national forests. The association has aroused national interest in creating national forests and for acquiring lands for increasing them, in passing laws and securing public support to control forest fires, establishing forest experiment stations, State forestry commissions, and schools of forestry. Its interest in national parks has been similar to that for national forests. When the association was started there were no national parks as we conceive them today. The Yellowstone National Park had been set aside

and was being administered by the Army, but there was no system of national parks as we know them today. I give you these facts, gentlemen, so that you may understand our organization as one genuinely and disinterestedly interested in efficient, able administration of the conservation responsibilities of the United States.

The word "conservation" as used in this bill is the cause of considerable mental confusion. A "Conservation Department" sounds constructive, but on careful inquiry the idea of coordination which we all want for our national Government functions would appear to be hindered instead of helped by the new grouping evidently contemplated under the banner of conservation.

The interests grouped under the single term "forestry" are more complex than appears on the surface. It would be a comparatively simple matter if the 167 million acres of national forests ended the administrative responsibilities. But there is more land in farm forests, owned and operated by farmers, than in all the national forests. Farm forests comprise 185 million acres which must not be divorced from the Department of Agriculture. They are an integral part of each farm all over the United States. Only a step beyond them in close relationship to the fundamental responsibilities of the Department of Agriculture are the 270 million acres of privately owned forest lands operated for commercial purposes.

In my State of North Carolina we have 30 million acres-20 million acres of which are classified as forest lands. Of this 20 million acres 65 percent is farm woodland that is, the majority of our forest land is owned by farmers. I understand more than 50 percent of all forest land in the Southeastern States is owned by

farmers.

Increasing efforts are being made by State and Federal agencies to bring to the farmer the consciousness that his farm woods must be considered as a crop. If properly thinned and cut for sustained yield, the farmer will get a more sure annual income from this farm forest crop than from any other of his crops. There are 44 extension foresters in 37 States of the Union carrying out this program of education and assistance. These men are on the staffs of the land-grant colleges which are in every State in the Union and work through the county agricultural agents. To divorce the Forest Service and its related work from the Department of Agriculture would create an inexcusable state of confusion and delay the accomplishments which are universally desired.

The group of activities bearing on forests now carried on by the Department of Agriculture are so interrelated that we fear it would be a grave danger if they were torn asunder. Some of these agencies are as follows: Bureau of Chemistry and Soils; Soil Conservation Service; and may I say here that the conserving of the soil in the Southeastern States is the most important task now facing the people of the Southeastern States. This is a job that must be carried out on individual farms. It is a farm and farm forest matter requiring the most intimate cooperation on the part of several bureaus in the Department of Agriculture.

The Bureau of Entomology and Plant Quarantine deals with insect and fungus pests that may at any time threaten our forests, as for example the Dutch elm disease and white pine blister rust; the Division of Forest Pathology with its facilities for research in forest and tree diseases; the Biological Survey having to do with propagation and management of wildlife so closely related to farm forests as well as national forests; the Bureau of Agricultural Economics which studies farm forests as an integral part of farm practice.

The American Forestry Association is jealous for constructive administration of our national resources to insure the continuance of forest development now so ably carried on in the United States. Reports in the daily press of last June indicate that the original draft of this bill carried a clause which specifically exempted the Forest Service from either transfer or abolishment. When the bill was introduced and made public no such clause was included. Therefore, we request and urge that a similar amendment be added to paragraph 4b, section 2, comparable with that maintaining the status of the Mississippi Flood Commission and the work of the Army Engineers. To be specific, we respectfully suggest that this paragraph be amended to read, "Nothing in subsection (a) shall be construed to authorize the President to abolish or transfer to any other agency any of the functions exercised by the Forest Service, the Bureau of Biological Survey, or the Soil Conservation Service of the Department of Agriculture.'

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That the position of the American Forestry Association may be clear, I submit for your consideration the following resolution passed on February 10, 1932, and reaffirmed at a regular meeting of the directors on February 12, 1937:

"Resolved, That any reorganization or consolidation of the activities of the Federal Government relating to the administration of the public lands and reservations should be based on the principle of bringing under one departmental

direction the agencies which are concerned with the production and conservation of (1) crops and plants, serviceable for food or environment for man and animals, and (2) plants and forests serviceable for soil and water production, fibers, woods, and other plant products.

"The problems of production and conservation of plant life and the problems of protection and conservation of soils and waters relating to agriculture, grazing, and forestry should be handled through a common administrative agency. Under the same direction should be included the conservation of domestic stock and wildlife whose management depends on plant foods and environment. These activities should be centered in the Department of Agriculture."

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Smith.

STATEMENT OF H. A. SMITH, ASSOCIATION OF STATE FORESTERS

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Smith, will you tell the stenographer your initials and the organization you represent?

Mr. SMITH. H. A. Smith, president of the Association of State Foresters.

The CHAIRMAN. You are the president of the Association of State Foresters?

Mr. SMITH. That is correct, sir, representing 35 State forestry organizations in America.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Smith, you have heard the statement of Mr. McClure. Do you desire to make a statement on the same subject? Mr. SMITH. Practically the same thing, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. We will be glad to hear you.

Mr. SMITH. The 35 State foresters' organizations of the United States are very intimately tied in with the activities of the National Forest Service. All of those organizations in the South, or practically all, owe their very existence to the coopertive funds provided by that forest service. They are, therefore, very much concerned over any movement which might tend to disrupt the present recognized efficient handling of the funds upon which their existence depends.

They feel that the changing of the name of the Department of the Interior to the Department of Conservation and thereby offering support to those interested in the enlargement of their duties would offer, not only now but in the future, a constant threat to the stability of the existing forestry program through the danger of transferring the forest service to organizations outside of the Department of Agriculture.

They feel further that authorization to the President, or to future Presidents, to make any transfers he chooses would subject him to pressure from powerful minorities and might result in such transfers.

They object to the transfer of the entire Forest Service to any new branch of the Government because, first, the idea behind such a transfer to them does not seem sound. They feel that there must always be provided conservation measures under any system that can possibly be set up. Practically any of the present departments today have some sort of conservation measures. There are too many conservation branches, too intimately tied in with the present departments, to permit of such transfer. Forestry cannot be removed from chemistry and soils, from research, from extension, from plant industry, from pathology or entomology.

They object to the transfer of the entire Forest Service, in the second place, because forestry is a long-time project intimately

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