The Illuminator, designed to exhibit the true principles of the Wesleyan ...

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chapel, and to these he now made an appeal, saying, ". you see what sort of fellows they To which I replied, "I hope they do see, and will see; for I wish them to know that I do not intend you to rob me of my rights in this way, without any opposition. If I am wrong-if Mr. Gordon has any right to occupy the pulpit in this way, he can call me to an account. But I have the Deeds of this chapel in my pocket, and know that I am right. If any of you choose, to-morrow morning you shall examine the Deeds, and judge for yourselves" (for I happened to have brought the Deeds with me, in order to show them to Mr. Williams, who is one of the Trustees). Here, again, he appealed to the people. "Hear that," said he, "he has the Deeds of my property." "The chapel," I said, "is not yours-it belongs to Methodism, and you only hold it in trust, for Methodist purposes; but you are now robbing Methodism of its rights, and betraying your trust, by appropriating this chapel to purposes which are directly opposed thereunto." Finding he could not succeed, he prayed a few words, and came down out of the pulpit; and so, walking out of the chapel, both he and his party went away.

In the afternoon when I went into the pulpit to preach, and opening the Bible, I found an outline or skeleton of the lecture which Mr. Gordon had been delivering to the people; and, as it may show you for what purpose he had broken into a place of worship, and committed a theft upon the pulpit, I will give it you in this place. The following are its order and words:-"Our grievances are connexionalno private pique against Mr. Watmough-object for which we are contending is to establish the authority of our Local Courts', Leaders', and Local Preachers' and Quarterly Meetings-in our expulsion Mr. Watmough has violated three most essential rules, 1, in not consulting the Leaders' meeting; 2, in not trying us before the Local Preachers' meeting; 3, in not trying us and proving our guilt before, and in the presence of, a Trustees' meeting-the Local Preachers will meet those of our friends who are willing to meet in the afternoons of their appointments here." I was not aware of the fact at the time, but I believe he had actually been lecturing them on these topics. And with what truth or propriety he could affirm some of those things, or why he should contend" for the rest, those who know Methodism, and have perused the account herein given of the expulsions in question, may form an opinion for themselves. A. WATMOUGH.

Yours affectionately,

Whitehaven, Nov. 1835.

TO THE EDITOR OF THE ILLUMINATOR.

SIR-Whether any cause can be supported by low, mean, and scurrilous language, the public must judge, and time will determine. But if a cause be good in proportion to the subtle, mean, and delusive measures which are adopted to support it, the Association certainly must be one of the most excellent combinations which has been exhibited to the world. The editor of the Lantern is well versed in misrepresentation, many instances of which may be adduced of a most glaring character; however, in this paper I will only refer to one, which the editor seems to delight in re-publishing, as it has frequently been stated by him; but as the veracity of the Lantern is so low with the public, I suppose that no person has thought it worth notice.

In the last number, he again states that the Rev. G. Marsden, superintendent of the Liverpool South Circuit, said, that "a man might never read the word of God, use family or private prayer, attend public worship, class-meeting, or the Lord's Supper, and yet not be immoral." Now for the facts of the case.

"We

A letter was sent to Mr Marsden, signed by eight of the Leaders belonging to the Pitt-street Society, as also by some others, in which is the following sentence. deprecate excommunication on any grounds, except for gross immorality of conduct." In reference to that and other statements, they add in the same letter, "We have not adopted these conclusions hastily, but circumstances have forced them upon us, and we dare not refuse to act upon them." That letter was dated, February 12, 1835. In a little time after Mr. Marsden received the letter, in their zeal for the REFORM of Methodism, they published their NEW RULE to the world. Soon afterwards, at a Leaders' meeting which was held at Pitt-street chapel, and at which those Leaders were present, Mr. Marsden laid before the meeting the following rules of the Methodist Society:"It is expected of all who desire to continue in these Societies, that they should continue to evidence their desire of salvation, by attending upon all the ordinances of God; such are

"The public worship of God.

"The ministry of the word, either read or expounded.

"The Supper of the Lord.

"Family and private prayer.

"Searching the Scriptures, &c."

He then showed them that, according to their new rule, which they had published to the world—that if no person was to be expelled from the Society but "for gross immorality of conduct," quoting their own words-it was not merely a rule to which the Methodist Connexion would not consent, but that a person, on their principle, might continue in Society who neglected the Lord's Supper, searching the Scriptures, family and private prayer, and also might neglect their class; and yet, if not guilty of "GROSS IMMORALITY," they would keep him in Society as a Member of the Methodist Body. And he clearly and strongly stated, that, by the Methodist rules, those who neglected these important duties could not be allowed to remain in our Society; but, according to their rule, a person might neglect them all-neglect his class, or be a socinian; and yet, if he was not grossly immoral, they would keep him as a Member. Mr. Marsden, therefore, required, that as they had adopted a new, unmethodistical, and unscriptural rule, and that rule had been published to the world with their names affixed, that they should as publicly announce their withdrawal of such rule; and in that requirement, the Leaders' meeting united. The result was, that not one of those eight Leaders would withdraw the new rule which they had published.

So much for the veracity of the editor of the Lantern, as to who they are who declare that a person ought to remain in Society, who neglects those scriptural and important duties.-Mr. Marsden firmly maintained the Methodistical rules of church membership; those Leaders, with some others, have adopted one which certainly will allow of a very lax interpretation. But as in former secessions from the Methodist Body, time has proved the best interpreter as to the nature of their principles, so in this, we may leave it to the same interpreter.

Mr. Wesley somewhere remarks, that the seceders from the Church of Scotland began by finding fault with the church from which they separated; but that the Methodists began with finding fault with themselves." Any person who either reads the publications of the Association, or converses with one of its leading members, will soon discover that they have not commenced their career with finding fault with themselves, or speaking kindly and tenderly of the Body from whom they have seceded.

TO THE EDITOR OF THE ILLUMINATOR.

SIR-I need not inform you that the attempt made by some of the Trustees of the Rochdale chapel to desecrate that place of worship, by allowing Dr. Warren & Co. to hold a meeting in it, for the purpose of slandering and libelling the Conference (one of the parties concerned in the Trust Deed of that very chapel), has excited the surprise, and roused the indignation of the whole Connexion. In your article on the Rochdale case, you state that the Trustees "have the reputation of being somewhat sagacious, shrewd, and high-minded men." An ingenious essay, Mr. Editor, might be written on the varied ways by which men contrive to obtain characters without deserving them. "By their fruits shall ye know them," is one of those concise but infallible rules which our Lord laid down, to enable us to judge accurately of character. Some of these Trustees may have risen into opulence by their industry, and by taking proper advantage of the rise and fall in the prices of flannels, and sugar, and drugs; but the inference is not a necessary one-that they are "sagacious, shrewd, high-minded men.' We, at a distance, who can only form our judgment of them from their overt acts, should never have thought of giving them such designations. "Sagacious men are acute in making discoveries; had they been so, they would have found out that his honour, the Vice-Chancellor could issue an injunction from Studley as easily as from his court, in London. Men of "shrewd" understanding are quick at distinguishing truth from falsehood; had they been so, they would instantly have detected the imposition practised upon them by some wily Associationist, that because they were Trustees-that is, held property committed to their care for the use and behoof of others therefore, they might employ the chapel for any purpose they pleased. High-minded" men would have regarded with scorn the first suggestion made to them to betray their trust, and thus forfeit their character for integrity. Granted, that in the immediate vicinity of Rochdale, they have hitherto sustained the character you mention, they will do so no longer. "Dead flies cause the ointment of the apothecary to send forth a stinking savour: so doth a little folly him that is in reputation for wisdom.”—Eccles. x. 1.

The firm resistance made by Mr. Sumner, his colleagues, and the Trustees who were "faithful among the faithless found," entitles them to what I am sure they will have increasingly-the thanks and support of the Connexion. A principle of the greatest importance was involved in the conduct of these Rochdale Trustees, and the decision in their case applies universally; whether their office is merely administrative

chapel, and to these he now made an appeal, saying, "you see what sort of fellows they are. To which I replied, “I hope they do see, and will see; for I wish them to know that I do not intend you to rob me of my rights in this way, without any opposition. If I am wrong—if Mr. Gordon has any right to occupy the pulpit in this way, he can call me to an account. But I have the Deeds of this chapel in my pocket, and know that I am right. If any of you choose, to-morrow morning you shall examine the Deeds, and judge for yourselves" (for I happened to have brought the Deeds with me, in order to show them to Mr. Williams, who is one of the Trustees). Here, again,

he appealed to the people. "Hear that," said he, "he has the Deeds of my property." "The chapel," I said, “is not yours-it belongs to Methodism, and you only hold it in trust, for Methodist purposes; but you are now robbing Methodism of its rights, and betraying your trust, by appropriating this chapel to purposes which are directly opposed thereunto." Finding he could not succeed, he prayed a few words, and came down out of the pulpit; and so, walking out of the chapel, both he and his party went away.

In the afternoon when I went into the pulpit to preach, and opening the Bible, I found an outline or skeleton of the lecture which Mr. Gordon had been delivering to the people; and, as it may show you for what purpose he had broken into a place of worship, and committed a theft upon the pulpit, I will give it you in this place. The following are its order and words:-"Our grievances are connexionalno private pique against Mr. Watmough-object for which we are contending is to establish the authority of our Local Courts', Leaders', and Local Preachers' and Quarterly Meetings-in our expulsion Mr. Watmough has violated three most essential rules, 1, in not consulting the Leaders' meeting; 2, in not trying us before the Local Preachers' meeting; 3, in not trying us and proving our guilt before, and in the presence of, a Trustees' meeting-the Local Preachers will meet those of our friends who are willing to meet in the afternoons of their appointments here." I was not aware of the fact at the time, but I believe he had actually been lecturing them on these topics. And with what truth or propriety he could affirm some of those things, or why he should tend" for the rest, those who know Methodism, and have perused the account herein given of the expulsions in question, may form an opinion for themselves.

Yours affectionately,

Whitehaven, Nov. 1835.

A. WATMOUGH.

con

TO THE EDITOR OF THE ILLUMINATOR.

A letter was sent to Mr. Marsden, signed by eight of the Leaders belonging to the Pitt-street Society, as also by some others, in which is the following sentence. "We deprecate excommunication on any grounds, except for gross immorality of conduct." In reference to that and other statements, they add in the same letter, "We have not adopted these conclusions hastily, but circumstances have forced them upon us, and we dare not refuse to act upon them." That letter was dated, February 12, 1835. In a little time after Mr. Marsden received the letter, in their zeal for the REFORM of Methodism, they published their NEW RULE to the world. Soon afterwards, at a Leaders' meeting which was held at Pitt-street chapel, and at which those Leaders were present, Mr. Marsden laid before the meeting the following rules of the Methodist Society:"It is expected of all who desire to continue in these Societies, that they should continue to evidence their desire of salvation, by attending upon all the ordinances of God; such are

"The public worship of God.

"The ministry of the word, either read or expounded.

"The Supper of the Lord.

"Family and private prayer.

"Searching the Scriptures, &c."

He then showed them that, according to their new rule, which they had published to the world-that if no person was to be expelled from the Society but "for gross im morality of conduct," quoting their own words-it was not merely a rule to which the Methodist Connexion would not consent, but that a person, on their principle, might continue in Society who neglected the Lord's Supper, searching the Scriptures, family and private prayer, and also might neglect their class; and yet, if not guilty of GROSS IMMORALITY," they would keep him in Society as a Member of the Methodist Body. And he clearly and strongly stated, that, by the Methodist rules, those who neglected these important duties could not be allowed to remain in our Society; but, according to their rule, a person might neglect them all-neglect his class, or be a socinian; and yet, if he was not grossly immoral, they would keep him as a Member. Mr. Marsden, therefore, required, that as they had adopted a new, unmethodistical, and unscriptural rule, and that rule had been published to the world with their names affixed, that they should as publicly announce their withdrawal of such rule; and in that requirement, the Leaders' meeting united. The result was, that not one of those eight Leaders would withdraw the new rule which they had published.

Mr. Wesley somewhere remarks, "that the seceders from the Church of Scotland began by finding fault with the church from which they separated; but that the Methodists began with finding fault with themselves." Any person who either reads the publications of the Association, or converses with one of its leading members, will soon discover that they have not commenced their career with finding fault with themselves, or speaking kindly and tenderly of the Body from whom they have seceded. X.

TO THE EDITOR OF THE ILLUMINATOR.

SIR-I need not inform you that the attempt made by some of the Trustees of the Rochdale chapel to desecrate that place of worship, by allowing Dr. Warren & Co. to hold a meeting in it, for the purpose of slandering and libelling the Conference (one of the parties concerned in the Trust Deed of that very chapel), has excited the surprise, and roused the indignation of the whole Connexion. In your article on the Rochdale case, you state that the Trustees" have the reputation of being somewhat sagacious, shrewd, and high-minded men." An ingenious essay, Mr. Editor, might be written on the varied ways by which men contrive to obtain characters without deserving them. "By their fruits shall ye know them," is one of those concise but infallible rules which our Lord laid down, to enable us to judge accurately of character. Some of these Trustees may have risen into opulence by their industry, and by taking proper advantage of the rise and fall in the prices of flannels, and sugar, and drugs; but the inference is not a necessary one-that they are "sagacious, shrewd, high-minded men." We, at a distance, who can only form our judgment of them from their overt acts, should never have thought of giving them such designations. "Sagacious men are acute in making discoveries; had they been so, they would have found out that his honour, the Vice-Chancellor could issue an injunction from Studley as easily as from his court, in London. Men of "shrewd" understanding are quick at distinguishing truth from falsehood; had they been so, they would instantly have detected the imposition practised upon them by some wily Associationist, that because they were Trustees-that is, held property committed to their care for the use and behoof of others therefore, they might employ the chapel for any purpose they pleased. "High-minded" men would have regarded with scorn the first suggestion made to them to betray their trust, and thus forfeit their character for integrity. Granted, that in the immediate vicinity of Rochdale, they have hitherto sustained the character you mention, they will do so no longer. "Dead flies cause the ointment of the apothecary to send forth a stinking savour: so doth a little folly him that is in reputation for wisdom."—Eccles. x. 1.

to hold the property for the purposes specified in the Chapel Deed, and those only; or whether, considering themselves as proprietors, they had a right to legislate as to what peculiar purposes it should be applied, beyond those specially named. If the right they endeavoured to establish were allowed, what guarantee have the Methodists that their chapels will not soon be used for any purpose-the most hostile even to religion and morality? Nor is the supposition that this would soon be the case, an outrageous one. Let the following facts be allowed to have their proper influence upon the question under discussion. You are aware, Mr. Editor, that during the late Conference in this town, the members of the Association and the self-elected delegates held their meetings in Surry-street chapel, which belongs to the "Wesleyan Protestant Methodists." Their official documents were dated, "Surry-street chapel." Mr. Gordon, and others of them, preached in it. The Protestant Methodists, you know, have manifested great sympathy with the Association, and an earnest desire to be one Body with them in fact, they are so now virtually, if not formally. The Trustees of this notorious Surry-street chapel are at the present time allowing it to be used for almost any purpose, on those days when it is not occupied for religious services-of course, they are remunerated for their kindness. Any itinerant, orator, lecturer, or reformer, finds there a theatre, if the fee be forthcoming. A course of lectures on astronomy has lately been delivered in it. But what I am about to state nearly exceeds credibility. I copy, verbatim, from the large yellow placards, posted on the walls of the town:-"LECTURES ON SHAKSPEARE. Mr. Pemberton will prolong his course of lectures in Surry-street chapel, analytical and illustrative of some of Shakspeare's characters, by delivering one on Tuesday evening, Nov. 10, on Richard II. and Henry IV.; and one on Friday evening, Nov. 13, on King John. Stranger's admission, one shilling each lecture:" Happy seat-holders! you are not strangers-the ticket for your pew will enable you to hear a sermon on Sunday, and a lecture on Shakspeare on Tuesday!

Such, Mr. Editor, is the practical working of a system in which every man seems to do what is right in his own eyes. If the Rochdale Trustees have the power for which they contended, to employ the chapel for meetings to agitate and destroy, under the pretence of reforming, Methodism, they have equally the power to allow Mr. Pemberton, or any one else, to lecture upon Shakspeare in it. They may revolt at the idea, and deem it impossible that they should thus act. So did Hazael when Elisha fortold him the enormities he would perpetrate upon the children of Israel-" Is thy servant a dog that he should do this great thing:" but of every crime specified by the prophet was he soon guilty.

God is over-ruling the present agitations in Methodism, for the accomplishment of important ends. The Chancery decision in Dr. Warren's case has settled the question as to the rights of District Meetings, and the Vice-chancellor has now given an instructive monition to Trustees of chapels, that their office is administrative and not legislative, and that the great purposes for which the Wesleyans erected their places of worship and vested them in Trustees shall not be trampled npon with impunity. We have now the case fairly and practically before us: Trustees faithful to their charge-and the sanctuary of God unpolluted; Trustees violating their Deed, and assuming proprietorship, and then-“Lectures on Shakspeare," if they please, delivered in a Methodist chapel.

Sheffield, Nov. 12, 1835.

O. P. Q.

THE EJECTION OF JAMES LAMB FROM THE LIVERPOOL
GRAND CENTRAL..

And is it at last come to this-that James Lamb, the popular and disinterested advocate of religious liberty, and the avowed enemy of Conference despotism, has received his dismissal from that Association, with which he declared himself willing to sacrifice life and health! Oh, the mutability of all human affairs! Our readers will remember we predicted this, and unequivocally declared our opinion, that many months would not elapse before James Lamb would be without work or home; and, before six months have passed, he has received a notice, that the lords of the Liverpool Association are prepared to dispense with his services !

Long have the Association been dissatisfied with their venerable and heavenlyminded pastor. During the negociations which were carried on between them and the Rev. Robert Aitken, we saw to which quarter the wind was veering, and expected before this to have heard of his ejection. When the deputation visited the Isle of Man, composed, as it was, of two or three of the leading agitators, the Rev. Gentleman asked, what the Association intended to do with Lamb, should he accede to their pro

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