Admiral TWINING. I will see what I can find and put it in. The following prices for smokeless powder paid by foreign countries have been found in the Navy Department files:

England. - Cordite, 1906, 40 cents; 1909-10, 36 cents.

Germany. Guncotton powder, 1906, 99 cents. (Price quoted by Koln-Pottweiler factory.)

France. Guncotton powder, Government manufacture, 1908, 58 cents (estimated). (1911 newspaper articles quote 52 cents and 70 cents.)

Japan. No reliable information.

The CHAIRMAN. I would also like to invite your attention to the statement of Col. Buckner as it appears on pages 448 and 449 of the hearings of this committee in the Sixty-first Congress, second session, in which there is an estimate of Admiral Mason, who was then Chief of the Bureau of Ordnance, in which he submitted an estimate of the cost, including, as I understand it, substantially the same items as are in your estimate, the price of 43.21 cents, as against your estimate of 33.6 cents. I would be glad to have you put in the hearings an explanation, if you have any, of the difference in those two estimates, and why one is 10 cents a pound higher than the other, and if there are any items that enter into the estimate of Admiral Mason and would be eliminated from yours, or what makes that difference. You can put that into the hearings fully.

Admiral TWINING. The cost of powder manufactured at the Indianhead powder factory during the fiscal year 1909 was 43.2 cents per pound. There is still a small decimal to be added to that, as Admiral Mason has it $43.21 per hundred pounds, which corresponds with the figures at Indianhead for that year. In other words, in two years we have reduced the production cost of powder nearly 10 cents a pound.

Mr. Foss. Has there been any decrease in the cost of materials? Admiral TWINING. I think not; there has been a slight increase in the cost of cotton. Other materials are substantially the same. Mr. Foss. How about the cost of labor, has that been about the same?

Admiral TWINING. There may have been some slight increase in that, but not very much.

Mr. Foss. Have there been any improvements or new inventions connected with the manufacture of smokeless powder which have tended to lessen the cost?

Admiral TWINING. There has been some improved machinery put in at the powder factory in consequence of an appropriation that Congress made. A new power house was installed, and new and modern machinery, and a number of new things which I could give in detail if the committee wished it. All of which has tended to increase the efficiency of the plant, and, so far as I can learn, the reduction in the cost of powder is almost entirely due to that. It is due also, in part, to the fact that we made slightly more powder than we did in 1909-about 200,000 pounds more. That would make a slight difference.

The CHAIRMAN. What is the total amount of powder manufactured last year?

Admiral TWINING. One million forty-one thousand six hundred and forty-eight pounds of new powder. We reworked 760,486 pounds, so that the total output of the factory was 1.802,134 pounds.

The CHAIRMAN. Admiral, what is the capacity of the powder factory at Indian Head, working all the time?

Admiral TWINING. Working 24 hours every day in the year, the capacity would be about 3,000,000 pounds a year; that is, assuming that we had no breakdowns and that we could work continuously. That is its theoretical capacity, of course.

The CHAIRMAN. The capacity then, if you work one shift of eight hours, would be one-third of that?

Admiral TWINING. Substantially one-third, yes, sir. We are working continuously in certain processes. We are working three shifts. of men on that work, but the plant as a whole is only running one shift.

The CHAIRMAN. Where is the other powder factory?

Admiral TWINING. The Army has a powder factory at Picatinny Arsenal, near Dover, N. J.

The CHAIRMAN. What is the capacity of that factory?

Admiral TWINING. I think they have never made more than half a million pounds a year. Gen. Crozier, in his last annual report, states that improvements and extensions are in progress there which will make the capacity 9,000 pounds a day, which, working 365 days in the year, would be in the neighborhood of 3,000,000 pounds, the same as that at Indianhead. How nearly they could carry that out in practice, I don't know.

Mr. KOPP. Do I understand that the Indianhead factory manufactures powder for only large guns?

Admiral TWINING. We make all sizes of smokeless powder used in the Navy except for the small arms. We buy all our small-arms ammunition from the Army, and I think they make it themselves.

Mr. TRIBBLE. Was the special appropriation for the purpose of putting in new machinery for that plant?

Admiral TWINING. Yes, sir; it appeared as a provision in the bill of March 3, 1909, in the general appropriation for ordnance and ordnance stores. It was provided that not less than a certain sum ($250,000) should be expended in the enlargement of the powder factory.

Mr. LOUD. Where is the powder made for the large coast-defense guns?

Admiral TWINING. That is furnished by the Army, and they either make it themselves at the Picatinny Arsenal or buy it from the du Pont Powder Co.

Mr. LOUD. None of their powder is obtained from the Navy? Admiral TWINING. I don't think we have ever furnished them any powder at all, except some few lots for experimental purposes.

Mr. ROBERTS. I wanted to ask about the black, or brown, powder. It was stated a few years ago that there was a large quantity of that black powder on hand.

Admiral TWINING. We still have a quantity of that brown powder on hand. The black powder we use for various purposes. It is used for saluting, and ignition charges, but the brown powder is dead stock. Mr. ROBERTS. You are gradually using up the black powder? Admiral TWINING. Yes. We are buying new black powder all the time, but there has been no accumulation of that which was considered dead stock.

Mr. ROBERTS. What could be done with that brown powder?

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Admiral TWINING. Every chief of the Bureau of Ordnance for the last 15 years has tried to do something with it, and we would be glad to find some way of disposing of it.

Mr. ROBERTS. Admiral Mason stated in his last statement that it might be dissolved, and certain component parts of it gotten out of the solution and used in the manufacture of new powder. Has that been attempted?

Admiral TWINING. There is nothing in this old brown powder that could be used in the manufacture of smokeless. There is saltpeter, which could be used in the manufacture of black powder, but it would cost too much to get it out. I am trying now to use some of it as fertilizer, just drowning it in water until it is soft enough to spread over the land.

Mr. ROBERTS. What are its chemical constituents?

Admiral TWINING. Sulphur, saltpeter, and charcoal. It is merely a mechanical mixture of those things.

The CHAIRMAN. In one statement before the committee-before this last that I mentioned the admiral stated that it was even too expensive to take it out in a boat and dump it into the sea?

Admiral TWINING. I think that any chief of bureau or Secretary of the Navy would hesitate to destroy a quantity of military stores of that kind, although they might not be able to use them. I would like to dispose of it; but we can't even sell it for anything worth while and which would justify selling it.

The CHAIRMAN. What caused the department to accumulate such a large quantity of useless powder. Do you know?

Admiral TwINING. It was not useless at the time it was bought. It was the best powder in existence at that time; but the advent of smokeless powder superseded it, and we were left with a certain amount on hand. The amount we have on hand is no more than would be expended in a year or two at target practice probably if we were using that powder now. We bought a good deal at the time of the Spanish War.

The CHAIRMAN. I want to ask the admiral about that niter depot at Malden. There are vast quantities of niter stored there, are there not? Admiral TWINING. A considerable quantity; yes, sir; about 5,000,000 pounds.

The CHAIRMAN. Are they using that niter from Malden in the manufacture of smokeless powder?

Admiral TWINING. We have not recently used any of it, as we prefer to keep that for use in war times or for emergencies. It isn't exactly what we use now. It has a different chemical constituency, and it is more economical for us to buy the exact thing we want. We can use that at Malden at any time, if necessary. It would all be used up in

a year.

The CHAIRMAN. "For Naval Gun Factory, Washington, D. C.: New and improved machinery for existing shops, $125,000." If I remember correctly, Admiral, that has been a continuing appropriation at that same figure for a series of years.

Admiral TWINING. Up to last year this was $150,000. Last year it was reduced to $125,000.

The CHAIRMAN. Can it be reduced further?

Admiral TWINING. I think not, sir; not without loss of efficiency to the gun factory.

The CHAIRMAN. Will you have any unexpended balance from that appropriation of last year?

Admiral TWINING. We expended or obligated of our last year's appropriation all but about $15,000. I think there will be no balance during the current year, as we have already used about $40,000 and still have half the year to go.

The CHAIRMAN. So you don't think there is any reasonable possibility of reducing that amount?

Admiral TWINING. No, sir, I think not. It represents less than 4 per cent of the value of the machinery in the plant and seems to be a very reasonable amount for replacement and renewals.

Mr. Foss. In private concerns, how much do they estimate for new machinery each year?

Admiral TWINING. I suppose that depends a great deal on the character of the plant. I don't know; I haven't any actual data on that subject.

Mr. Foss. It is fully 4 per cent, isn't it?

Admiral TWINING. I should think that would be considered rather small.

The CHAIRMAN. "Machinery, cupolas, furnaces for new foundry, $120,000." That is by reason of the appropriation last year establishing the new foundry. Will you be ready with the new foundry for that work during the coming year?

Admiral TWINING. We will be ready to begin some of this work. We won't be ready to put all the machinery in, but we can purchase it and get it installed during the last of this year and the early part of the succeeding year.

The CHAIRMAN. What is the estimated total cost of the machinery, and so forth, as there enumerated to equip that foundry?

Admiral TWINING. The appropriation here asked for is the full

amount.

The CHAIRMAN. This will complete it, then?

Admiral TWINING. Yes, sir. I am willing to cut that slightly, if the committee wishes. The original request for the appropriation for the building was $300,000, which Congress reduced to $200,000. This involved some necessary reductions in the amount of machinery, and if Congress will appropriate $100,000 it will be all I can see any necessity for now, and I don't think we will have to come back for any more. Mr. Foss. Are you willing to have the language put in there, Admiral, that that will complete it?

Admiral TWINING. I would rather not shut the door finally, but I can assure you that I believe everything has been anticipated, and I don't think we will need any more. We never know. Of course, we may have to pay more than we expect for some things, and I wouldn't like to tie myself not to ask for anything next year; but I don't see any necessity for it now.

The CHAIRMAN. "New batteries for ships of the Navy: For new sights for 5-inch, 6-inch, and 7-inch guns, and modifying their mounts, $100,000." The appropriation last year was $245,000; is this $100,000 to complete?

Admiral TWINING. No, sir; not quite. I think that next year I shall have to ask for about $160,000 more, which will complete. This will be all that will be required for this year, and I will ask for the balance next year if I need it.

Mr. Foss. Will that $160,000 bring it all up to date?
Admiral TWINING. Yes, sir.

Mr. Foss. So that there will be no necessity for anything further? Admiral TWINING. Unless somebody comes along and invents. something new. The amount asked for now will be sufficient for present conditions, and the $160,000 that I think I shall ask for next year will bring all these mounts and sights of these calibers up to modern standards.

Mr. ROBERTS. Admiral, how many guns will this amount modernize?

Admiral TWINING. All of the battery of the New Hampshire, Mississippi, Idaho, Kearsarge, Kentucky, and the vessels of the Georgia class, of which there are five.

Mr. ROBERTS. This money, then, is to be expended on ships that are afloat?

Admiral TWINING. Yes, sir; for mounts and sights that are actually on board ship that were built before the newest and best things that we now have were developed.

Mr. ROBERTS. Those will greatly increase the efficiency of the ships?

Admiral TWINING. A great deal; yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. The next item is for fire-control instruments. I find a letter from the Secretary asking that that be omitted.

Admiral TWINING. Yes, sir; I find that I don't need it.

The CHAIRMAN. "For fitting new breech mechanisms to 3-inch 50-caliber, Mark III guns, $150,000." Is the Mark III gun of the 3-inch, 50-caliber the highest mark that you have, the latest improve

ments?

Admiral TWINING. No, sir; but the later marks are semiautomatic guns of quite different design.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, what mark will that gun be after you improve it by expending this $150,000?

Admiral TWINING. We will still call it the Mark III. The change is in the breech mechanism. I have a note here which explains it. The CHAIRMAN. I will be glad if you will put that into the record. Admiral TWINING. Practically all screw breech mechanisms now fitted to 3-inch, 4-inch, 5-inch, and 6-inch guns in service contain an element of danger in that the firing pin is central in the breech block and is in line with the primer before the block is rotated and locked. Premature discharges are, therefore, possible, which, if they occur, will cause damage and probable loss of life.

It is intended to utilize this appropriation in modifying these mechanisms or furnishing new ones; for this purpose it is desired that the wording be changed to: "Modifying or renewing breech mechanisms of 3-inch, 4-inch, 5-inch, and 6-inch guns, $150,000." In first estimates two appropriations were included, as follows: Fitting new breech mechanisms to 3-inch, 50-caliber, Mark III guns.. $100,000 Modifying breech mechanisms of 3-inch, 4-inch, 5-inch, and 6-inch guns.... 100,000 It was decided to combine these into one and to reduce the aggregate to $150,000. Through inadvertence the wording of the estimate as submitted was incorrect, as it did not cover the work contemplated. The CHAIRMAN. Do you suggest that change?

Admiral TWINING. Yes, sir. I would like to have it, instead of "fitting new breech mechanism." I would like to have it read "modi