I was interested in what you said with regard to the advice given to the soldier as to what vocation he should choose. Originally, when we had the original act under formulation, it was intended that a representative of the board should go to each one of the hospitals and act in an advisory capacity with the surgeons who had charge of the case in the hospitals. Of course, the supreme authority in the hospitals up until the time of discharge is with the officer or with the surgeon, and it would be his responsibility to determine what vocation, if any, he should follow, while he was within the hospital. Some of the treatment is vocational in its nature. Now, that being true, the responsibility for a vocational education of the soldier while he was yet undischarged and while he was yet in the hospital would be with the military authorities, would it not?

Maj. HENDERSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. TOWNER. It would only be in an advisory capacity that the representatives of the board could act. If a man had been discharged, then that authority would shift from the medical to the Vocational board and it would be for them to decide what the man should follow. Do you know in your experience what proportion of the men have been refused the training which they themselves desired?

Maj. HENDERSON. I could not say as to the proportion. I know of four men who read physicians' bulletins on the medical profession for disabled soldiers and applied for training for physicians and were refused.

Mr. TOWNER. Was that while they were yet in the hospital?

Maj. HENDERSON. They were in the hospital and interviewed the representative of the Federal board in the hospital. They made application for it so that whatever time they left the Army there would be no gap between their discharge and going on the pay roll of the Federal board.

Mr. TOWNER. Before the refusal came from the vocational officer? Maj. HENDERSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. TOWNER. Upon what grounds was the refusal based?

Maj. HENDERSON. On the ground of lack of previous education and what he thought ought to be adaptability.

Mr. TOWNER. What would you think as to the wisdom of the decision in this case?

Maj. HENDERSON. It was about fifty-fifty. In the case of two of them I would not agree with the representative of the Federal board. This is my own opinion. In two they should have been allowed to go on. As I said before, we have promised that man he could have the education that would fit him for an occupation of his choice, and the man should have the right and opportunity to take something of his own choice.

Mr. TOWNER. It is rather a long road for a man, for instance, who has a fifth-grade education, to start to become a physician.

Maj. HENDERSON. There is no question about it. But if we promised it to him we ought to make good on it.

Mr. TOWNER. I am not raising any issue. I am just speaking about the fact. So far as my own feeling is concerned I entirely agree with you that whatever promises are made should be carried out, and so far as my own personal feeling is concerned, I feel no matter how long it takes or how much it costs it ought to be done.

Maj. HENDERSON. Referring to the testimony of Mr. Miller, in reference to sympathizing with the men; a man who is disabled is thinking over the proposition of what is going to become of him in the training, and he has found one of these bulletins that says he will be trained for the occupation of his choice and he is hanging onto that and the letters that they write on the chance that he can become a doctor, perhaps. He has seen medical men working in that hospital; he has built himself a castle in the air that he will be a doctor. and when he comes to the place that he can not get it then the boy lets down and gives it up, and it is in that way the complaints

grow.

Mr. TOWNER. Of course, the feeling of disappointment and discouragement and, perhaps, despair, would be just as serious with the man who could not possibly obtain his choice as it would be with a man who could obtain it. There must be some instances of this among those where the man who makes a choice of his profession or of service of any kind would be refused because it was impossible for him to have that?

Maj. HENDERSON. I think in that case if we could show the man that he had a fifth-grade education and to become an M. D. it will require a year of preliminary training, four years of high school, four years in college, and two years in an interneship to make him an M. D., pointing out that is a matter of 14 or 15 years, he would either say, "I will go through the 15 years," or, "I guess I had better choose something else."

Mr. TOWNER. And if he did say he would go on with the 15 years, that would be an indication that he would make good?

Maj. HENDERSON. Yes. I would like to point out an instance. A man may have been interviewed by a special adviser in the district and then he himself may have gone to the Pittsburgh district and then the papers have been sent to him there. We had a case where a surgeon wrote: "I am still waiting for the Federal board to act on the case." I immediately got into touch with the local representative of the Federal board and told him about the case. Within 24 hours there was a wire in Pittsburgh to call on the man, Surg. Bull, at a certain place, and I got a letter back that the man's training had been started. It is a matter of losing contact, and that is the difficulty in the divided authority. It is the loss of authority with the man.

Mr. ROBSION. Maj. Henderson, you do not undertake to speak of the condition at the New York office, do you?

Maj. HENDERSON. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. We are very much obliged to you. Let me say to the committee that I have a letter from Timothy Furphy, stating that Mr. Joseph Furphy, who was to appear here to-day by subpoena, is ill in bed, and I also have a certificate of his doctor, stating that he is too ill to leave home. That accounts for his absence. There is another man who was subpoenaed, Mr. Rudolph Faber. I have no report from him. The investigation will proceed to-morrow in the forenoon.

(Thereupon the committee adjourned to meet again at 10 o'clock a. m., Thursday, April 8, 1920.)

COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION,

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,

Washington, D. C., Thursday, April 8, 1920.

The committee met at 10 o'clock a. m., Hon. Simeon D. Fess (chairman) presiding.

The CHAIRMAN. The committee will come to order. Mr. Campbell, you may be sworn.

(The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.)

STATEMENT OF MR. GORDON M. CAMPBELL, 12 LINCOLN STREET, MIDDLETOWN, N. Y.

The CHAIRMAN. You may give your name and address to the stenographer.

Mr. CAMPBELL. Gordon M. Campbell, 12 Lincoln Street, Middletown, N. Y.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Campbell, you were in the service?

Mr. CAMPBELL. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. When did you enter?

Mr. CAMPBELL. July 18, I think it was, 1918.

The CHAIRMAN. Were you overseas?

Mr. CAMPBELL. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Where were you in this country?

Mr. CAMPBELL. Pelham Bay.

The CHAIRMAN. What branch of the service?

Mr. CAMPBELL. The Navy.

The CHAIRMAN. When were you discharged?

Mr. CAMPBELL. January 13, 1919.

The CHAIRMAN. What was your disability rating?

Mr. CAMPBELL. It was 80 per cent disability when I left.

The CHAIRMAN. What was the matter?

Mr. CAMPBELL. They did not give me any definite answer as to what it was, but I had the "flu " and it settled in my back and my right leg.

The CHAIRMAN. What do you receive in the way of compensation? Mr. CAMPBELL. Not a thing.

The CHAIRMAN. From the War Risk Bureau?

Mr. CAMPBELL. Not a thing.

The CHAIRMAN. You were discharged with 80 per cent disability? Mr. CAMPBELL. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. You said that was in January?

Mr. CAMPBELL. January 13, 1919.

The CHAIRMAN. Over a year ago?

Mr. CAMPBELL. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you make any application for compensation to the War Risk?

Mr. CAMPBELL. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. When?

Mr. CAMPBELL. Before I left the naval base hospital, Pelham Bay Park, N. Y.

The CHAIRMAN. What was their reply?

Mr. CAMPBELL. They told me to fill out a questionnaire. I did; and I have heard nothing from them since.

The CHAIRMAN. Since that time?

Mr. CAMPBELL. No, sir; with the exception of blanks to be filled out, questionnaires for the medical people.

The CHAIRMAN. So you received nothing from the War Risk Insurance?

Mr. CAMPBELL. No, sir; not 1 cent.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you apply for vocational training?

Mr. CAMPBELL. I did, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. When?

Mr. CAMPBELL. At the same time.

The CHAIRMAN. Where?

Mr. CAMPBELL. Pelham Bay Park.

The CHAIRMAN. Had you been in the hospital?

Mr. CAMPBELL. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Had anybody visited you in the hospital to talk about vocational training?

Mr. CAMPBELL. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. About when, do you remember?

Mr. CAMPBELL. It was just before I was discharged from the hospital.

The CHAIRMAN. That was January 13, 1919?

Mr. CAMPBELL. Yes, sir; just a few days before.

The CHAIRMAN. When did you leave the hospital, at the time you were discharged?

Mr. CAMPBELL. No; I left the hospital about two or three days before and then I was transferred to the main camp, and discharged from there. I could not be discharged from the naval base hospital

The CHAIRMAN. Have you made any other application for training? Just proceed, Mr. Campbell, in your own way and tell the committee your experience.

Mr. CAMPBELL. From the time I left the hospital?

The CHAIRMAN. From the time you were discharged. What is your relationship to the Federal Board for Vocational Education? What did you try to do and what has been done for you, if any thing?

Mr. CAMPBELL. When I got out I made application for vocational training, and then I was released. I was sent home.

The CHAIRMAN. Where did you make this application?

Mr. CAMPBELL. My first application was made from the camp at Pelham Bay Park. Then when I reached home there was another blank there which I had filled out and sent in to the Vocational Board.

The CHAIRMAN. Where did you send that?

Mr. CAMPBELL. To 280 Broadway, I believe.

The CHAIRMAN. New York-that is what I wanted to get at.

Mr. CAMPBELL. Yes, sir. It was sent to New York.

The CHAIRMAN. Proceed.

Mr. CAMPBELL. Then I heard nothing else for quite some time. and then I received some more of these blanks to be filled out for physical examination, and I complied with those.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you remember what time this was? We are trying to get at whether there was any delay.

Mr. CAMPBELL. There was quite some delay.

The CHAIRMAN. Can you give the date when you first made application, and then when you made it the second time, so as to let the committee know whether there is some delay.

Mr. CAMPBELL. After I filled out the blanks for training I received a lot of medical examinations, but they all referred back to the training. They sent me a medical report to have filled out, and then it kept on like that, and I have been receiving medical reports ever since. Each one I had filled out. In correspondence I had with them they each time claimed that my medical reports were holding up the case.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you ever made personal application? Did you appear in person to the board at any time?

Mr. CAMPBELL. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Were you ever examined by the office?
Mr. CAMPBELL. Several times.

The CHAIRMAN. Outside; after you left the hospital?

Mr. CAMPBELL. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Where?

Mr. CAMPBELL. When I had the blanks they were sent to my home, and I was told to report to Dr. S. L. Truex.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you report to him?

Mr. CAMPBELL. Yes, sir.

Mr. TOWNER (presiding). Where was the doctor? Where did you go to be examined?

Mr. CAMPBELL. To his home or office, 21 Washington Street, Middletown, N. Y.

Mr. TOWNER. Can you give us the date of the first time you were examined under the auspices of the Federal board?

Mr. CAMPBELL. I can not give you the dates. I can give you the month and year.

Mr. TOWNER. That is near enough.

Mr. CAMPBELL. I started in January 13, when I was discharged. Mr. TOWNER. What year?

Mr. CAMPBELL. 1919; January 13, 1919, I was discharged. I had a bad condition of the spine and sent in application for vocational training at the time of discharge. I also applied for compensation. Now, in May, 1919, I was reviewed by the Federal adviser and all papers necessary for training made out at this time; and a physical examination.

Mr. TOWNER. May, 1919?

Mr. CAMPBELL. Yes, sir. In July, I was resurveyed by the Federal advisor. The second physical examination was October, 1919, and a second resurvey by the Federal advisor. The third physical examination was November, 1919; that was the third survey by the Federal advisor. The fourth physical examination was in December, 1919: the fifth physical examination required by the board

Then I received another one in December, 1919, which was the sixth. Since then I have received questionnaires to have filled out for physical examination. I think the last one was in January, 1920. Mr. TOWNER. Have they ever given you any report as to your status? Have they ever notified you that you were qualified for vocational training?

Mr. CAMPBELL. Yes, sir.