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Mr. McGOVERN. Yes, sir.

Mr. Robsion. In that folder and as part of the record, does that disclose that the man is an epileptic?

Mr. McGOVERX. It did.

Mr. Robsion. That must have been before the central office here in Washington, when it was acted upon and he was directed, I mean, when he was given vocational training?

Mr. McGOVERN. Yes, sir. In the case of the man who was running the elevator, I have no doubt but if you will go into the files they do not know what happened here. They probably credited it as à placement and more or less successful, and probably believe it was without criticism.

Mr. ROBSION. Of course, putting a man of that character in charge of the elevator would not only endanger his own life, but the lives · of other people.

Mr. MCGOVERN. In my letter of resignation I said it might cause such a scandal that it might ruin the entire life of the Vocational Board. I wrote that because I had this condition-because I have had experience in things of that sort previously.

Mr. ROBSION. Where do you state that this system that is used by the Vocational Board is wrong? State just briefly.

Mr. McGOVERN. Lack of vision; lack of vision and lack of speed and proper system.

Mr. Robsion. You stated that Mr. Bronson did not learn much? What do you mean by that?

Mr. MCGOVERN. In the Vocational Summary, the official publication of December, there is a resolution which was credited to Mr. Bronson. As I read that from the article, it, word for word, is practically identical with the resolution that I introduced five years ago before the American Federation of Labor. .

Mr. Robsion. It is your own statement, your own opinion and judgment, that the Vocational Board has not profited by experience?

Mr. McGOVERN. I think the board has, but not this particular man. Mr. Lamkin—they have devised some radical changes there. I have talked it over with the board and they have devised radical changes which should expedite to a certain extent.

Mr. ROBSION. You have made a number of statements about someone in New York, a member of the Big Six, who you say graduated? What did you mean by that statement, that he graduated?

Mr. McGOVERN. The average member of a labor organization expects some day to be an employer himself, those that I know, and I know them by the thousands. They expect to go on and be superintendents and managers and such stuff as that. I am a member of it but I am an odd stick among these people. The majority of them are younger men. The engineer is a man who has plenty of time and usually wants to be what we call a boss or superintendent.

Mr. ROBSION. What do you mean about this young fellow who completed his education and as you say he graduated ?

Mr. McGOVERN. It was his own expression. Mr. ROBSION. What was in your mind ? Mr. McGOVERN. He had become an employer. He had so progressed in his economic life that he was entitled to the next step up.

Mr. ROBSION. What did they have to do in this connection with this Federal board ?

Mr. McGOVERN. He was a man that was qualified to look on both sides. He not only had been a workman, but also

Mr. ROBSION (interposing). You did not use that expression for the purpose of conveying to our minds the idea that he might exploit these men ?

Mr. McGOVERN. Not by any means. Barnes is not that kind of a man. He is a very high type of man.

Mr. RobsION. Then, you made some reference to the fact that you believe in fighting it out and in not bothering the law or having a law. What did you say on that?

Mr. McGOVERN. It looked to me as though the officials were not active enough, that they did not take the same position that might have been taken, that there was not that spirit of getting over obstacles to rehabilitate them and get through with it.

Mr. ROBSION. So it would appear that the whole proposition was one of timidity and not one of vigor and spirit and courage to go into it. Is that what you mean?

Mr. McGOVERN. That is what I get from it. I hope I did not misjudge them.

Mr. ROBSION. And upon the whole, you feel that the system lacked efficiency and vision and that the men carrying it out lacked efficiency and vision ?

Mr. McGOVERN. I think so.
Mr. ROBSION. That is all.
The CHAIRMAN. You may be excused, Mr. McGovern.

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STATEMENT OF MR. BEN DUNSTALL, 117 SOUTH AVENUE,

CRANFORD, N. J.

(The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.)

The CHAIRMAN. You may give your full name and your address to the stenographer. Mr. DUNSTALL. Ben Dunstall, 117 South Avenue, Cranford, N. J.

The CHAIRMAN. You have had some experience with the Vocational Board in attempting to secure vocational training? Mr. DUNSTALL. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. I think it is better to let you tell your story, as it now appears to me.

Mr. DUNSTALL. I went to New York, to an office in New York, about a week after I got out.

The CHAIRMAN. When was that when you called ? Mr. DUNSTALL. The 3d of October. The CHAIRMAN. What year? Mr. DUNSTALL. 1919. The CHAIRMAN. Proceed. Mr. DUNSTALL. I told them I wanted to go to scliool, and they fixed the papers for me; said they would fix them up in a short time to go to school. I did not hear from them and went down again about four months after and saw them about it, and they wrote out more papers. I had to stay there five or six hours before I got anything done in the office.

The CHAIRMAN. Where was this?

Mr. DUNSTALL. In New York; before they would do anything for me I waited four or five hours.

me to come e papers. Le to writin

I had took them two

The CHAIRMAN. What was your injury?
Mr. DUNSTALL. Fractured femur.

The CHAIRMAN. What was your disability rating?
Mr. DUNSTALL. I was getting 25 per cent.
The CHAIRMAN. You desired to get training ?
Mr. DUNSTALL. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Were you making any application as to what you would do?

Mr. DUNSTALL. I wanted to take up auto machinist. The CHAIRMAN. Go ahead and tell your story in your own way. Mr. DuNSTALL. I went down that day and waited four or five hours, and they would do nothing for me but go to writing papers; I do not know what they put in the papers. They did not get finished that day, but told me to come back next morning-Saturdayand it took them two or three minutes to fix it on the next day, and I had to go all the way down there from Cranford.

The CHAIRMAN. How far is Cranford from New York ? Mr. DUNSTALL. I do not know; Cranford is a pretty long ways. I did not get any word from them there. I went to the American Legion to see them about it. After that they started to send me to the school.

The CHAIRMAN. About when was it that you had your assignment, when they sent you to school? Mr. DUNSTALL. The 8th of March. The CHAIRMAN. That is this year? Mr. DUNSTALL. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Where did they send you? Mr. DUNSTALL. Newark. The CHAIRMAN. What is the name of the school? Mr. DUNSTALL. I do not know the name of the school. It is High Street, Newark.

The CHAIRMAN. Were there other service men there in school? Mr. DUNSTALL. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you been there ever since? Mr. DUNSTALL. No; I have quit school because I was not learning anything.

The CHAIRMAN. When did you quit school? Mr. DUNSTALL. About a couple of weeks after I began going. I did not learn anything.

The CHAIRMAŇ. You tried it for two weeks?
Mr. DUNSTALL. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. What were they teaching you?
Mr. DUNSTALL. Tried to teach me electrician. I tried to take
garage but I could not stand it; it made me sick.

The CHAIRMAN. You wanted to be a machinist?
Mr. DUNSTALL. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. What had been your work, Mr. Dunstall, before
you went into the service?
Mr. DUNSTALL. I was a farmer.
The CHAIRMAN. Had you had any experience with machinery?
Mr. DUNSTALL. No; I was at the horses work.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you have any experience with automobiles on the farm?

Mr. DUNSTALL. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN, How much schooling had you had when you left ,school?

Mr. DUNSTALL. Only fourth grade.

The CHAIRMAN. What did you say they were teaching you in this New Jersey school? Mr. DUNSTALL. Auto machinist.

The CHAIRMAN. What complaint, Mr. Dunstall, have you to make, if any? What was your treatment when you came before the board? Mr. DUNSTALL. About the school?

The CHAIRMAN. No; I mean when you were making application. Have you any complaint to make at all except

Mr. DUNSTALL. They were very slow; they did not seem to want to do anything up there.

The CHAIRMAN. They did not refuse, then, to give you training!

Mr. DUNSTALL. No, sir. One fellow says you are liable to be dead before you get it.

The CHAIRMAN. He would be dead or you would be dead?
Mr. DUNSTALL. I would be dead.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you take that as a matter of course, or a joke!
Mr. DUNSTALL. I guess he said it as a joke.

The CHAIRMAN. You have not been in any school since two weeks after you entered ? Mr. DUNSTALL. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Have you any desire to go on and take training? Mr. DUNSTALL. Yes, sir; I would take it up. If they would teach a fellow I would take it up.

The CHAIRMAN. You say that you quit because they were not teaching you anything? Mr. DUNSTALL. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Can you tell us why you could not learn? Was it because of bad teaching?

Mr. DUNSTALL. There were so many fellows there who did not seem to have anyone there to teach them; 300 men, and hardly any teachers at all. They just had to go up to the rooms and you would not see them any more.

The CHAIRMAN. How did the other fellows get along? Mr. DuNsTALL. Just up there fooling and doing nothing; just putting in their time.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you hear anybody complaining? Mr. DUNSTALL. Yes, sir; I heard lots of fellow's say, “I have not learned a thing; have been there about four months and have not learned a thing."

The CHAIRMAN. Have any others quit?
Mr. DUNSTALL. Yes, sir; they are quitting every day down there.

Mr. TOWNER. When you came back from across the water you came back on a stretcher?

Mr. DUNSTALL. Yes, sir. Mr. TOWNER. You were seriously wounded, and still suffering from the effects of that?

Mr. DUXSTALL. Yes, sir.
Mr. TOWNER. Where did they take you first?
Mr. DCNSTALL. They took me to New York to the Palace.

Mr. TOWNER. What was you treatment in the Army hospital?
Mr. DUNSTALL. Good treatment there.
Mr. TOWNER. How long were you there, do you remember?
Mr. DUNSTALL. For about a month.
Mr. TOWNER. Where were you taken from there?
Mr. DUNSTALL. Camp Dix, N. J.
Mr. TOWNER. What did they take you to Camp Dix for?

Mr. DUNSTALL. They did not keep us in New York, but just to get down there to the marine hospital.

Mr. TOWNER. They transferred you to another hospital? Mr. DUNSTALL. Yes, sir. Mr. TOWNER. How long did you stay there in the hospital! Mr. DUNSTALL. About six months. Mr. TOWNER. What was your treatment there? Mr. DUNSTALL. It was not very good up there at Camp Dix. Mr. TOWNER. Not so good as in the other place? Mr. DuNSTALL. It was not a bit good up there at all. Mr. TOWNER. You had not been discharged as yet? Mr. DUNSTALL. No, sir. Mr. TOWNER. Where did you go from Camp Dix? Mr. DUNSTALL. Baltimore, Fort McHenry. Mr. TOWNER. Did you go into the hospital there? Mr. DUNSTALL. Yes, sir. Mr. TOWNER. That was the third hospital that you were transferred to? Mr. DUNSTALL. Yes, sir. Mr. TOWNER. How long did you stay in that hospital? Mr. DUNSTALL. About four months. Mr. TOWNER. And what was your treatment there in the hospital?

Mr. DUNSTALL. That was not so bad. It was pretty good treatment there.

Mr. TOWNER. Better than Camp Dix!
Mr. DUNSTALL. Yes, sir.
Mr. TOWNER. You are still not discharged from the Army?
Mr. DUNSTALL. No, sir.
Mr. ToWNER. What became of you then?

Mr. Dunstall. I just stayed up there for keepings; they wanted to discharge me; I was waiting for discharge then.

Mr. TOWNER. By that time your leg had been attended to and had healed up, had it? Mr. DUNSTALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. TOWNER. However, it was found to be some inches shorter than the other leg, was it not?

Mr. DUNSTALL. Yes, sir; about 3 inches shorter. Mr. TOWNER. And you are compelled now to use a cane to walk with? Mr. DUNSTALL. No, sir; I do not use a cane.

Mr. TOWNER. You have an artificial boot or support so as to equalize the length of your leg? Mr. DunstALL. Yes, sir. Mr. Tow XER. When were you discharged ? Mr. DUNSTALL. I was discharged October 8. Mr. Towner. Were you discharged from Fort McHenry!

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