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Mr. McGovern. Yes; but I am citing my own position; you see, I am not a legislative baiter, and I have been opposed in many instances to going near the legislatures.

Mr. Brand. Then, the only reason these boys have suffered is largely due to the delay in being placed, in your judgment?

Mr. McGOVERN. In my judgment, the Federal board had a tremendous task. If you will permit me to explain: Mr. Holder and I had a difference one time as to this. I have said repeatedly that the greatest loss which America suffered when it separated from England, considered from an economic standpoint, was the loss of the apprentice system. For instance, I could not go out to a man and tell an employer that I wanted a man made a cutter. He would say,

What do you mean by cutter?” There is no standard in this country. In Canada and England and France and Germany and Italy there is a trade standard.

Mr. BRAND. Well, you are getting away from my question. I want to know if there is delay up there, as you stated there was, in placing these boys; who was responsible for it, in your judgment?

Mr. McGOVERN. Why, I place the responsibility on one man.
Mr. BRAND. Who is it?
Mr. McGovern. He is not with the board at the present time.
Mr. BRAND. What is his name?
Mr. McGOVERN. Dr. Prosser.
Mr. BRAND. Do you think he is chargeable with this delay?
Mr. McGOVERN. I think that he is.

Mr. BRAND. Is there any other man in the Washington office here, outside of Dr. Prosser, that you think was responsible for it?

Mr. McGOVERN. Well, the supervisor of placement down therehe hasn't advanced much in four or five years. I can show you in the vocational summary

Mr. BRAND (interposing). Who is that?

Mr. McGOVERN. Mr. Brunson. I can show you in the vocational summary a resolution which is credited to him and his work, which is practically parallel to my first resolution in 1914.

Mr. BRAND. Well, now, you are getting away from this delay proposition. What I want to know is who, in your judgment, outside of Dr. Prosser, either in New York or here in Washington, is responsible for this delay in placing these boys?

Mr. McGOVERN. Those are the two; if I should place any responsibility at all it would be with those men. With regard to Brunson, his assistant or himself would come to New York, and they would tell the supervisor of placement: “ This is the new procedure." Then the supervisor would go ahead and do as he pleased.

Mr. BRAND. Then it is the system they adopted which is the cause of it as much as anything else?

Mr. McGovern. Well, I think a man ought to respond--
Mr. BRAND (interposing). Is that so?

Mr. McGOVERN. Yes, sir; but I place the personal responsibility, because the system came from there, upon them.

Mr. BRAND. You place the responsibility on them, because they are the authors of the system?

Mr. McGOVERN. Yes, sir; they didn't see that it was carried into effect. They suggested the procedure and that was all.

Mr. BRAND. Well, you were up there as part of the official body in New York; why didn't you carry it into effect?

Mr. McGOVERN. My attitude was that I was there to do as I was told, and no supervisor can truthfully say that I ever refused to undertake anything, no matter how poor a specimen of man it was, no matter what his disability, I went out and I walked around through the city in the rain and the wet and I never regretted it.

Mr. BRAND. Well, were the other employees did the other employees have the same interest in the boys that you had, so far as you know, or were they neglected by any of them in the force there in New York ?

Mr. McGOVERN. Well, I think they did the best they could under the light they had—those men. Mr. BRAND. I have no further questions.

Mr. DALLINGER. Did I understand you to say, Mr. McGovern, that you were in the military service during the war?

Mr. McGOVERN. No, sir. Mr. DALLINGER. When did you enter the service of the board—the Vocational Board ?

Mr. McGOVERN. The day after the armistice.

Mr. DALLINGER. Now, I believe you said that you kept no record of the number of men you placed?

Mr. McGOVERN. I did not.

Mr. DALLINGER. Well, can you give the Committee any idea of how many men on an average you placed a week?

Mr. McGOVERN. I sometimes—with some men I would not be able to place a man in a week.

Mr. DALLINGER. Well, you did not spend a whole week on one man? Mr. McGOVERN. No.

Mr. DALLINGER. But I wanted to get some idea as to how many men you think could be placed in positions in a week by a capable supervisor?

Mr. McGOVERN. It would depend entirely upon the man. Some men you would be fortunate to secure them a position in three weeks or a month.

Mr. DALLINGER. What I am trying to get at is, whether the force is adequate. I understood you to express your opinion that the district you had was too large, altogether too large? Mr. McGOVERN. That is true. Mr. DALLINGER. New York, Connecticut, and New Jersey ? Mr. McGovern. I was not sent out of New York City, though.

Mr. DaLLINGER. I thought, in reply to a question, you said you had charge of those three States?

Mr. McGOVERN. No; I had charge of nothing. The District included all that territory.

Mr. DALLINGER. Then let us see if you can make yourself clear to the committee as to just what the modus operandi was. There was one man, was there, in charge of the placing of all of the men in New York, New Jersey, and Connecticut?

Mr. McGovERN. Yes, sir.
Mr. DALLINGER. What was that man's name?

Mr. McGOVERN. There were four different men. Mr. Constantine was the first ; Mr. Wadsworth, Mr. Hoopengarner, and Mr. Barnes.

Mr. DALLINGER. But at one time, any one time, was there one man who had charge of the work of placing men in employment in the district comprising New York, New Jersey, and Connecticut ?

Mr. MCGOVERN. Yes, sir. Mr. DALLINGER. Now, what salary, if you know, did that man get? Mr. McGOVERN. I don't know; I never heard. Mr. DALLINGER. How many men, if you know, did he have under him in that district, in the placement work?

Mr. McGOVERN. I could not say that, because there were men in outlying districts. They subdivided that again. A man would be in Buffalo I know there was a man in Buffalo, I know there was a man in the vicinity of Albany, I know there was another man in the vicinity of Hartford, Conn.

Mr. 'DALLINGER. But you don't know how many men they had in that district?

Mr. McGOVERN. I do not.

Mr. DALLINGER. Now did you have a particular subdivision of this big district assigned to you? Did you have the whole of greater New York as your district, or were there other men that were working in Greater New York?

Mr. MCGOVERN. For about three months, I think it was at least two months—I was the only man in the district, the whole district.

Mr. DALLINGER. Well, now, what district are you talking about ! Mr. McGovern. The city of New York, greater New York.

Mr. DALLINGER. As I understand it, you received a salary of $3,000?

Mr. McGOVERN. Yes, sir.

Mr. DALLINGER. Do you think that that is an adequate salary for a suitable man, a man who has the ability to advise and to get positions for men, and who is capable to carry on that work! Do you think that is an adequate salary or not?

Mr. McGOVERN. At the present time that is just about—that would be just about a fair salary for the work. Of course I did not know when I went in there just what my work was to be.

Mr. DALLINGER. Now, I think you said something about the fact that it would be well to have the districts smaller?

Mr. McGOVERN. Yes, sir.

Mr. DALLINGER. Do you mean for all purposes connected with the vocational board, or only the part which deals with the placement of men?

Mr. McGOVERN. For every purpose.

Mr. DALLINGER. That is, you would have a complete organization in every borough of Greater New York?

Mr. McGOVERN. Yes, sir.

Mr. DALLINGER. You would have officer in Manhattan Borough?

Mr. McGOVERN. Yes, sir.
Mr. DALLINGER. Where the boy could apply for training?
Mr. McGOVERN. Yes, sir.

Mr. DALLINGER. And where all the work connected with rehabilitating the soldier should take place?

Mr. McGOVERN. Yes, sir.

Mr. DALLINGER. And I think you said that approximately that would be a district of a million people?

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Mr. McGOVERN. Yes, sir.

Mr. DALLINGER. Do you think that one man would be all that would be required for the work of placement in that district of a million people?

Mr. McGOVERN. Not in that big district, not of a million, but in an ordinary congressional district, I think that two or three men, if public sentiment was aroused, could handle it-two or three executives, without the clerical force.

Mr. DALLINGER. I am just confining my questions, Mr. McGovern, to the question of placement. I understand that your experience has been entirely in the placement division?

Mr. McGOVERN. Yes, sir.
Mr. DALLINGER. And you are familiar with that?
Mr. McGOVERN. Yes, sir.

Mr. DALLINGER. And I am trying to get your idea as to the number of men that we ought to have to do this work without any delay to the service men? You now say that you would have to have more than one man working on the placement part of the work in a district of 1,000,000 people, which is practically four congressional districts?

Mr. McGOVERN. Taking my labor experience, one man in the labor movement can handle 1,000 men with ease. One business agent can see that they get employment and see that they get suitable employment.

Nr. DALLINGER. In what period of time?

Mr. McGovern. They have, as a rule, one man on the road, as they call it.

Nr. DALLINGER. You said one man could get employment for 1,000 men; what I meant was in what period of time? Of course he could not get positions for 1,00 men in a day or a week.

Mr. MCGOVERN. When I am speaking of employment, I mean men who are able to make their living—not to take men who are really subjects for rehabilitation.

Mr. DALLINGER. So really that is not a fair comparison.

Mr. McGovern. Once these men got out and were thoroughly rehabilitated, once they have learned a new vocation, I think one man could take care of 1,000 with ease—the type of men that I have

Mr. DaLLINGER. Now, can you give the committee any idea from your experience when you had charge of the whole of Greater New York, this seven or eight million people, how many men, how many cases came along to you, say, in the course of a week?

Mr. McGOVERN. These were all the cases that were given to me from June 23 until I can tell you that from here.

Mr. DALLINGER. I think that is very important to find out just whether we have an adequate force there or not.

Mr. McGovern. Twelve; those are all that I have kept records of12 of them in about four weeks.

Mr. DALLINGER. You had 12 cases in about four weeks?

Mr. McGOVERN. Yes, sir. These were cases that proved the necessity of the act. If I could go out even in a week and place a man so that he was on the same plane that he was before, there is no necessity for rehabilitation.

Mr. DALLinger. So you say those are 12 particularly hard cases?

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Mr. McGOVERN. Yes, sir.

Mr. DALLINGER. I was trying to bring out the information from you, if I can, of how many average cases of boys who have been rehabilitated and who need to be placed in industry-how many cases on an average per week or per month do you think that an agent of the board could take care of?

Mr. McGovern. He would be lucky if he could get away with 20 and get them so that they would not come back.

Mr. DALLINGER. In a week or a month?
Mr. McGOVERN. In a month.
Mr. DALLINGER. Twenty in a month?
Mr. McGOVERN. Yes, sir.

Mr. DALLINGER. Do you think the force in the New York office on the placement part of the work is adequate at the present time?

Mr. McGOVERN. Not under the present system.

Mr. DALLINGER. I don't know whether you have been asked this question or not. Were you there at the office when service men applied for training, when they came in there?

Mr. McGOVERN. Yes, sir.

Mr. DALLINGER. Can you give the committee any information as to how the boys were treated as they came into the outer office, where they had to go when they went to first make their application?

Mr. McGOVERN. There was considerable delay. "The men would go in there and wait. I have seen men come in there day after day for weeks.

Mr. DALLINGER. You have seen the same men come in day after day for weks?

Mr. McGOVERN. Yes, sir.
Mr. DALLINGER. What were they waiting for?

Mr. McGovern. They were waiting to be approved, to get a decision from the board.

A VOICE. I have had the same experience.

Mr. DALLINGER. Now, can you give the committee any information as to how the men were treated in the matter of courtesy?

Mr. McGOVERN. I know of one case-
Mr. DALLINGER (interposing). I mean of your own knowledge.

Mr. McGovERN. The man himself told me of this case, where the doctor chased him out of the office. He said it was one of the doctors. This man was a psychoneurotic. That is his diagnosis.

Mr. DaLLINGER. Are you familiar with the room that some of the boys called the “pen "--where they first went in, where there were four chairs to sit down in, and 20 or 30 boys waiting there from day to day? Are you familiar with that room?

Mr. McGovery. Yes, sir; those chairs are in there now. They are some chairs which were obtained from the Red Cross. through my efforts that those chairs were placed in there.

Mr. DaLLINGER. That is, until you took it upon yourself to intercede for the boys they didn't even have any chairs?

Mr. McGovern. They had chairs, but not sufficient. There might be a hundred men come in there, one morning, and the next morning there might be 25 or 30, and there wasn't room enough in that office. The outer office is just about as big as this room, and they stood there in rows, row after row. Those chairs were used in community serrice. They are wicker chairs, something like that armchair there

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