Mr. HAMMOND. Yes, sir.

Mr. BRAND. Were you while you were in there, in plain sight of this working force, the 200, as you say, employees, where you could see them?

Mr. HAMMOND. Well, if I chose to, I—just in what way do you mean that question?

Mr. BRAND. My next question was going to be, what did they seem to be doing?

Mr. HAMMOND. Well, yes. I was in a position where I could look at them, and there I could not help remarking to myself, as it werewell, really I felt this way about it, that it took so long to get this thing through and there was that big force of people there, it sort of seemed to be at that time that the soldier was really in the minority, as far as getting anything done was concerned.

Mr. BRAND. Now, there were a large number of men, soldiers, who were waiting there the same as you were?

Mr. HAMMOND. Yes, sir; to the extent of no more than 30-I might qualify that to say that there were not more than 30 waiting there that day. That was the maximum.

Mr. BURROUGHS. Now, did all those 30 men receive attenton that day, some time during the day?

Mr. HAMMOND. No, sir.

Mr. BURROUGHS. Some of them then had to come back or had to go away that night without having received attention?

Mr. HAMMOND. Well, they left in the afternoon. When they saw the condition that they were in on the list. they couldn't wait.

Mr. BURROUGHS. You were waiting for a medical examination? Mr. HAMMOND. Yes, sir.

Mr. BURROUGHS. Were all these other men waiting for a medical examination?

Mr. HAMMOND. No, sir.

Mr. BURROUGHS. Did you know what they were waiting for?

Mr. HAMMOND. Only by hearsay. I heard one or two of them mention that they were coming down to try and get off from school, the Federal Board school; that they were sick and they wanted to get off, and they had to see the doctor to get off, which would not have taken very long to do, and apparently did not.

Mr. BURROUGHS. Now, were any of those 200 men that you speak of advisors?

Mr. HAMMOND. I might state that this 200 proposition that I spoke of, that I thought about, or sort of assumed that there were, included men and women, and the advisors were over at the far end. I don't know how many advisors there were.

Mr. BURROUGHS. Did they seem to be very busy visiting with the men?

Mr. HAMMOND. Well, I can't say as to that, because it was at the other end of the room. I was at the very back of the room, like— well, about twice as long as this room here is, and there was all this agglomeration of office desks and things in between.

Mr. BURROUGHS. Let me ask you. did anybody advise with you, either that day or at any time, about your own case?

Mr. HAMMOND. Yes, sir.

Mr. BURROUGHS. When was that?

Mr. HAMMOND. That was that same day.

Mr. BURROUGHS. Was that before you had your medical examina tion?

Mr. HAMMOND. Yes, sir.

Mr. BURROUGHS. Now, do you know the name of the man who advised with you?

Mr. HAMMOND. I do not know his name, but his name can be h from the folder. I might explain here that it is very hard for any body to give testimony as to the names of these gentlemen when ther appear in a big place like that. You go in there simply to be examined and get things over with, and they don't give you a statement of what your examination consisted of or anything else. They simply say, "We will notify you when you go out."

Mr. BURROUGHS. Now, you have not testified to this, I believe-if you have, correct me about it, but I did not understand that you had testified to it.

I wish you would tell the committee, as near as you can remember it, just, what took place between you and this adviser when you and the adviser sat down together.

Mr. HAMMOND. Well, I might state that this particular adviser treated me all right. I need not say much more about it, that he satisfied me. He was a man that I believe was educated to the position and for the position.

Mr. BURROUGHS. You haven't any fault to find, then, with the particular adviser in the office?

Mr. HAMMOND. With the particular adviser that advised me; no, sir.

Mr. BURROUGHS. Did he seem to be sympathetic with you and try to get at your needs, your special needs?

Mr. HAMMOND. Well, he seemed to be willing to accept whatever I wanted.

Mr. BURROUGHS. Well, from anything that you saw or observed there that day, or any time when you have been there in the office was your experience any different from that of other men who. You did see?

Mr. HAMMOND. Are you referring to advising now?

It is

Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes: I mean specially with reference to advisers. Mr. HAMMOND. I might speak of a case that is not in there. a case of a man who is rooming where I am.

Mr. BURROUGHS. Of course, I might say that I want your own knowledge of it, not what somebody has told you.

Mr. HAMMOND. This is my knowledge in that you asked me a question as to whether or not I noticed anything about men being advised. I want to say that this man was advised to take a course that he is really not fitted for that is in an educational camp-or if he is fitted for it, the only way he could be fitted for it would be a preparatory education. Now, this man-I won't mention his name, but he is taking up construction work and he likes it, and that is the reason why I don't want to mention his name. He wants to finish the course, but the man is handicapped a good deal by the fact that they let him take that course without a foundation for the course, because the course is logarithms and mathematics of such a nature that this man has never heard of them before. He don't know algebra and

e comes to me for help on that. So in that case I would say that nan was not properly advised.

Mr. BURROUGHS. And does he feel so himself?

Mr. HAMMOND. Well, he knows that he doesn't get it as he should, but he likes it and he wants to know that, to be that, so he is just plugging away at it.

Mr. BURROUGHS. I understood your complaint in regard to your wn examination that it was, as you said, a casual examination that was given you-that is, rather careless?

Mr. HAMMOND. Yes, sir.

Mr. BURROUGHS. When you stop to consider the importance of it from your point of view?"

Mr. HAMMOND. Yes, sir.

Mr. BURROUGHS. That is, they gave you about 20 minutes?
Mr. HAMMOND. Yes, sir.

Mr. BURROUGHS. And no instruments were used?

Mr. HAMMOND. None but the stethoscope.

Mr. BURROUGHS. And I understood you also to take the position. from what you saw from your own experience and from what you saw there in the treatment of Mr. Smith that there was an attitude of indifference or hostility shown toward the men, and that they were unnecessarily humiliated and made to feel that they were asking charity instead of being treated as asking for what was due them as a matter of right.

Mr. HAMMOND. Yes, sir; I did refer to that in the case of this boy who came there, who I said I thought might be shell shocked, this Italian lad who came there, and before he arrived one of the clerks came down and said, "Treat this fellow gently; handle him with kid gloves."

Mr. BURROUGHS. Well, did you notice that attitude in regard to others than him?

Mr. HAMMOND. Well, I might say that that attitude was chiefly xhibited there-I didn't visit this place as much as other people who ave testified here; I went there just that one day and I saw them

no more.

Mr. BURROUGHS. Would you characterize their attitude toward you in that same way? Have they treated you that way?

Mr. HAMMOND. I would say they have treated me to a certain extent with discourtesy, in that I applied there and I asked for that examination. When I got to the point that I was examined-I mean where I was waiting my turn to be examined-I asked a question about when I would be examined and it was not answered with the amount of courtesy that one would expect. They did not say, "Well, you can't expect your case to come before 4 o'clock," or something like that. It simply meant that you had to wait there. Mr. BURROUGHS. You speak about a pen. I was never in the offices. Won't you tell us what you mean by that?

Mr. HAMMOND. Well, usually a pen is something that is fenced in, and while I mean this is not a picket fence or anything like that, there is a railing around it and you go in there, and there are about four chairs in there, these wicker chairs with cushions on them, but the men come in and as they come in they just have to stand up there, that is all, and wait their turn. There is no room to sit down, and

they lounge around and smoke cigarettes and throw them all over the carpet, and it looks just like a pig pen, if I do say so. The men get so disconsolate around there that they don't know what to do. Mr. BURROUGHS. How many men would be there at a time in one of those pens, as you call it?

Mr. HAMMOND. At the time that I was there, there were, at the most, 20 men.

Mr. BURROUGHS. And four chairs, you say?

Mr. HAMMOND. Four chairs; yes, sir. They would stand up and lounge around and try to stand in line, or something like that; and while I was there that day an Italian came in who didn't speak much English, and, consequently, he was a sort of a joke-a laughing proposition for the clerks there who brought him in and who were talking to the stenographer-calling him Caruso, or something like that. He took it all right, but he was a soldier, nevertheless, and disabled, and he didn't look to be that sort of a person.

Mr. BURROUGHS. I believe you testified as to the date of your discharge?

Mr. HAMMOND. Yes, sir.

Mr. BURROUGHS. That is all.

Mr. ROBSION. You have been asked quite a good many questions in regard to your opinion as to there being about 200 persons employed in that building.

Mr. HAMMOND. Yes, sir.

Mr. ROBSION. If I remember the records-the testimony-some witnesses heretofore have stated that there was something like 300 to 400, and it is your opinion that there were about 200 people employed there?

Mr. HAMMOND. That was given as a general opinion. I am not much at judging the amount of people. Distance would be better for me; but to me it appeared that there were about, I would say, around 200 people. There might have been more; there might have been less-that is, that were visible-that I could see.

Mr. ROBSION. When you arrived there that day, about 10 o'clock, there were something like 10 of you?

Mr. HAMMOND. Yes, sir; waiting there. I was about the tenth man to come in to that pen.

Mr. ROBSION. And you waited from 10 o'clock till about 7 o'clock that night before you got an examination?

Mr. HAMMOND. Yes, sir.

Mr. ROBSION. And there were about four chairs in that place?
Mr. HAMMOND. Yes, sir.

Mr. ROBSION. Now, these men that came in there and were waiting, up to as high as 20 at a time, with four chairs, as I understand you, they were all disabled or sick?

Mr. HAMMOND. Yes, sir.

Mr. ROBSION. Was there no effort made there to furnish them chairs or places to rest while they were waiting?

Mr. HAMMOND. No, sir.

Mr. ROBSION. And you tell this committee that a great many of the disabled and sick men there became fretted and worn out and left without the examination?

Mr. HAMMOND. Yes, sir.

Mr. ROBSION. And I believe you also tell the committee that some of these men informed you that they had been there two or three days waiting?

Mr. HAMMOND. Yes, sir.

Mr. ROBSION. Was there any suggestion there from any person in charge of that board to have appointments made for the men, that they could come in there at certain hours and receive their examination, and not be required to stay there from day to day?

Mr. HAMMOND. No, sir; that is just the point that I tried to bring out. I felt it all the time I was there, from what other men said and from what I have testified, I felt that the way everybody looked at it down there it was a cinch that instead of giving you training they were trying to keep it away from you. It seemed that way to me. Instead of coming out and trying to promote the training of disabled men, they were doing their best to retard it by making you stand up in this condition and waiting around and going from one person to another and things like that.

Mr. ROBSION. And if I have understood you correctly, their attitude was that they did not owe to you crippled heroes of this country any duty or courtesy, either one?

Mr. HAMMOND. Well, it seemed to me that was the attitude. It seemed so to me.

Mr. ROBSON. That is the impression made upon your mind from their conduct toward you men?

Mr. HAMMOND. Yes, sir. It seemed just like a matter-of-fact cold proposition that we were coming there to get something that--almost like begging, you might say.

Mr. ROBSION. Now, if I understand you, you have no grouch against the board at all on your own account?

Mr. HAMMOND. No, sir; in my own case I have no grouch. I went through all right, and the Federal board was perfectly all right on my case. All I am stating is what I saw, and I feel the reason why I am making this statement is because there are thousands of other fellows that have been buddies of mine all over the country that can not be present at this investigation and can not fight for themselves on a thing like that, and yet that condition exists, and there are men in New York who are not willing to go into a thing like this, who are keeping away from it and who did not by any means receive the best of consideration, men who really deserved more than I did.

Mr. ROBSION. You have been asked a number of questions about a man of your intelligence not finding out about the vocational board for your own relief. I might say to you and to the committee that every few days I get a letter from a soldier wanting to know if there is such a thing as the vocational board or compensation. If I understand it, when you got out of the service you went to work trying to make a living for yourself?

Mr. HAMMOND. I tried to; yes, sir.

Mr. ROBSION. And you feel that you have a physical handicap? Mr. HAMMOND. Yes, sir; inasmuch as I can not work indoors. Mr. ROBSION. You can not follow now, as I understand you, the Vocation or the work that you followed before you entered the service?