Mr. VESTAL. Do you know how long he had had the office open there and was taking care of this work before you arrived in New York?

Mr. LYSONS. I do not know definitely; no, sir.

Mr. VESTAL. Did you make his acquaintance soon after arriving in New York?

Mr. LYSONS. I did. I took up my work with him direct.

Mr. VESTAL. Now, what I would like to get at is, what were the conditions about the office there when you first became acquainted with Mr. Griffin? That is, as to whether or not there were a great number of soldiers, ex-soldiers, there asking for this training?

Mr. LYSONS. Well, the anteroom-that is, the entrance of the offices-was always full of disabled men.

Mr. VESTAL. Do you know how much help he had there about the office?

Mr. LYSONS. I do not; no, sir.

Mr. VESTAL. It is a fact, is it not, that the office was crowded with a great number of soldiers asking for this training?

Mr. LYSONS. Yes; the place set aside for them was always filled up. Mr. VESTAL. I believe you say you never discussed with him any of the complaints of the soldiers to you?

Mr. LYSONS. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. VESTAL. But in all of your transactions with him you found him to be sympathetic and anxious to take care of any case that you brought him?

Mr. LYSONS. Yes, sir; he always was. In addition to that, he came over to the Elks' War Relief Commission office one day and brought with him Mr. Schindler, who, I think, was chief clerk in his office, and they personally called on Gov. Tener, the chairman of our commission, and Mr. Fanning, the secretary, and myself, and assured us that they were anxious to do anything or everything that they could do to help the work and to give consideration to any cases that we brought to their attention.

Mr. VESTAL. What is your judgment, Mr. Lysons, relative to the slow progress made in the way of getting these boys started on their course of training, as to whether or not that was not accounted for from the fact of so many cases being brought in all at once, and the fact that it was a new proposition, rather than from the fact that these men did not give the proper attention to the soldiers?

Mr. LYSONS. My personal experience indicated that at least, this was the explanation of the Federal Board's people there-that delay was caused through failure, or rather the clogged condition of the Bureau of War Risk Insurance.

Mr. VESTAL. At that time nothing could be done, as I understand, by the board in the way of giving these boys training until their cases were passed upon by the Bureau of War Risk Insurance? Mr. LYSONS. Yes; that was the situation.

Mr. DONOVAN. I would like to ask Mr. Lysons something about the revolving fund. Will you please give the committee the benefit of any suggestions that you might have that the committee might later incorporate into legislation to be submitted to the House for

action? About how much of a fund, judging from your past experience, would you think would be necessary, and the maximum amount that might be allowed to the men, or whether or not that should be left discretionary with the board? Will you give us a general résumé of your suggestion of constructive legislation along those lines?

Mr. LYSONS. I believe that you could get pretty positive estimates of that from Mr. Lamkin, and particularly from Mr. Aronoff, who is the custodian of the Elks' fund. Their judgment would be much better than mine on that.

Mr. DONOVAN. Thank you. We can ask Mr. Lamkin about that. Now, yesterday I made a statement here relative to Mr. Griffin, whom I knew, and he was a delightful, charming man, and, I think, had the intention to do what was correct up there. During his administration I frequently visited the board, but the impression that I gained was that he was new in the work; that everybody connected with him was new in the work, except Dr. Miller and a Mr. Kidner, from Canada, and that the organization was at best imperfect, on account of the lack of experience of the whole outfit-whether or not a man that had had more executive training might have been able to have directed those under him to better advantage I am not prepared to say-but in your judgment do you think that that statement and assumption that I have just made is a correct picture of conditions as they there existed?

Mr. LYSONS. Yes, sir; it seems to be reasonable; entirely so. As I have said here, my personal experience was limited to interviews, either with Mr. Griffin or Mr. Schindler. I would go direct to their office when I went in, and did not have the means of observing-did not come into contact with the others.

Mr. DONOVAN. In 280 Broadway they had one of the top floors of that building, as I recall, and they were small rooms at best, a number of them.

Mr. LYSONS. Yes, sir.

Mr. DONOVAN. And it was frequently observed by me that service men were waiting in the hall, there was such an overflow, waiting for attention. Did you notice that condition?

Mr. LYSONS. Yes, sir; that was true.

Mr. DONOVAN. Now, a word about the Elks' fund. I want to also compliment it for its great beneficence in this regard. That is a fund which is loaned to the men, as I understand, for their maintenance during training, because under the present law the board has not the discretion or the authority to make advancements, and the Elks' fund has been employed for that purpose, and then when the men can, they refund to the fund.

Mr. LYSONS. Yes, sir.

Mr. DONOVAN. I understood you to say that your general experience with all the D. V. O. officers there, including Mr. Clarke, Mr. Collier, and the others, has been courteous and satisfactory?

Mr. LYSONS. Yes, sir.

Mr. DONOVAN. That is all.

Mr. LYSONS. I believe I stated that Mr. Aronoff is now the custodian of the Elks' fund?

Mr. DONOVAN. Yes.

Mr. ROBSION. When was this commission organized?

Mr. LYSONS. The Elks War Relief Commission?

Mr. ROBSION. Yes, sir.

Mr. LYSONS. At the grand lodge session of the order, in July, 1917, at Boston.

Mr. ROBSION. And then you applied $100,000 to this fund?

Mr. LYSONS. At that time a fund of $1,000,000 was authorized to be raised by assessment on the membership. This fund of $100,000 for this vocational training work was provided in February or March,

1919.

Mr. ROBSION. And since that time you have added another $100,000?

Mr. LYSONS. Yes; we have authorized up to a maximum of $200,000 for the revolving fund.

Mr. ROBSION. You have used about $76,000?

Mr. LYSONS. No; that $75,000 applies to the support fund. That is a donation of $100,000 that was made for the full support and training of disabled American boys who are outside of the purview of the law passed by Congress, such as the American boys who enlisted with the armies of the Allies and were wounded in that service. Of that $100,000, something over $75,000 is now committed to the training courses of the boys under training.

Mr. ROBSION. That is the amount which the Elks have put up for the training of American soldiers for which there is no provision of our law to take care of them?

Mr. LYSONS. Yes, sir.

Mr. ROBSION. Now, how much have you put up for training the American soldiers who come within the law?

Mr. LYSONS. That is where our revolving fund, or loan fund, comes in. We have appropriated a maximum sum of $200,000 for that

purpose.

Mr. ROBSION. So that there is $300,000 altogether involved?

Mr. LYSONS. Yes; and an additional $50,000 donation for publicity work.

Mr. ROBSION. Now, that $75,000, is that loaned to the boys, or given to them?

Mr. LYSONS. No; that is donated. That goes to the full support and training of the boys for their vocational courses.

Mr. ROBSION. How much have you loaned to the boys of the $200,000 fund?

Mr. LYSONS. Well, that is a revolving fund which, on February 28, the last figures I have, had aggregated a total of $104,000over $404.000 of which $268,000 has been repaid.

Mr. ROBSION. In other words, you have loaned, altogether, more than $400,000, and there has been about $268,000 of that repaid? Mr. LYSONS. Yes, sir.

• Mr. ROBSION. Leaving how much still owing to the commission? Mr. LYSONS. Well, it would be the difference between that $404.000 and $268,000, or $136,000. But those figures are a month old. We will have to-morrow or next day, the figures for the 1st of April. I would estimate that at the present time there had been perhaps $450,000 loaned.

Mr. ROBSION. Now, Mr. Lysons, I believe you set aside the $100,000 in February, 1918, for vocational training?

Mr. LYSONS. Yes, sir.

Mr. ROBSION. What caused you to do that?

Mr. LYSONS. The request resulted from conferences held with Dr. Prosser. He came to New York early last year and presented the matter to the Elks War Relief Commission at that time. He was then director of the Federal board.

Mr. ROBSION. The conclusion was reached that the law did not meet the conditions that you found, and that Dr. Prosser found with the American soldiers?

Mr. LYSONS. Exactly. There was a condition existing which called for immediate aid and assistance.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Robsion, would you permit me to interrupt you there?

Mr. ROBSION. Certainly.

The CHAIRMAN. The law provided for the very thing that the Elks lodge has responded to?

Mr. ROBSION. That is our amendment?

The CHAIRMAN. No; the original law provided wherever any one man wants to make any donation it could be done. It was one of the subjects of very serious discussion at the time, whether that ought to be written into the law.

Mr. ROBSION. But the United States did not make the donation; Congress did not make the donation.

The CHAIRMAN. No.

Mr. ROBSION. It just authorized somebody else to do it.

The CHAIRMAN. It authorized the board to receive such donations. Mr. ROBSION. Well, I say that you found a condition existing whereby the law as passed by Congress did not take care of the soldiers, as you thought they ought to be taken care of?

Mr. LYSONS. There was that condition existing that called for assistance for the success of this work; yes, sir.

Mr. ROBSION. And is it your opinion and judgment that that condition has existed ever since and now exists?

Mr. LYSONS. Well, of course, it has been relieved by this Elks fund.

Mr. ROBSION. I know the Elks fund has done that, but that is not from the Treasury of the United States, is it?

Mr. LYSONS. No; the law is just the same, of course, as it was.
Mr. ROBSION. So the condition still exists?

Mr. LYSONS. Yes, sir.

Mr. ROBSION. You spoke about 200 solders being picked up on the streets in New York City begging. During what period was that? Mr. LYSONS. No; I said there were incidents where they were selling trinkets or even holding out their hats, but those were, of course, few. Begging cases were almost negligible. You say when was that?

Mr. ROBSION. During what period?

Mr. LYSONS. That was during last summer.

Mr. ROBSION. Were they disabled?

Mr. LYSONS. They were disabled men; yes, sir.

Mr. ROBSION. And sufficiently disabled to receive vocational training?

Mr. LYSONS. Yes, sir; more than 200 cases of them; yes, sir; turned in by the New York Elks Lodge committee.

Mr. ROBSION. And they were following that occupation or business where they were waiting to receive this vocational training, were they?

Mr. LYSONS. Well, in many instances they claimed not to know anything about the vocational training proposition; and in many cases had to be persuaded to take it up.

Mr. ROBSION. Were they receiving compensation?

Mr. LYSONS. Not in all cases; no, sir. They were waiting for their compensation, and some were making pretty good money on the streets selling lead pencils, and so on.

Mr. ROBSION. Now, have the activities of the commission been confined to the city of New York?

Mr. LYSONS. No; we have a committee called the Soldiers' Friend Committee in every subordinate lodge of Elks in the country, 1,370 cities.

Mr. ROBSION. That covers the entire country?

Mr. LYSION. Well, of course, our Elks Grand Lodge grants a charter only in towns or cities of 5,000 inhabitants or more.

Mr. ROBSION. Do these various subordinate lodges make these loans, or advance it, to the soldiers throughout the country?

Mr. LYSONS. No; those loans are made through the custodian of the Elks fund, who is connected with the Federal Board for Vocational Education.

Mr. ROBSION. Do the boys throughout the country receive the benefits of that fund?

Mr. LYSONS. Yes; that fund is apportioned to the district vocational officers throughout the country.

Mr. ROBSION. Now, I believe you made the statement that it is the policy of your commission to follow up the cases that came to your attention for vocational training.

Mr. LYSONS. That has been the policy of our subordinate lodge committees; yes, sir; to keep in touch with the boys while they were in training.

Mr. ROBSION. What success has attended that effort on the part of your committee?

Mr. LYSONS. We consider that to be a very valuable part of the work, an almost necessary part of it.

Mr. ROBSION. And what percentage, if there is any percentage, of the men have dropped out for whom you used that plan?

Mr. LYSONS. I would not say that none of them had dropped out, but I would say that I do not recall of a case being reported to us that dropped out, except where that boy has been afterwards persuaded to go back.

Mr. ROBSION. How many cases would you say that your experience had covered in which you make this claim?

Mr. LYSONS. On not more than 10 or 12 that came to our attention of boys who have dropped out.

Mr. ROBSION. You mean the follow-up cases?

those?

How many of

Mr. LYSONS. There were a good many hundreds.
Mr. ROBSION. And you think that the number of them

dropped out would not exceed 10 or 12?

at

Mr. LYSONS. So far as my personal knowledge goes, it would

not be more than that who dropped out.