that prefers not to enter training, but you present the better side of the permanent work and he finally agrees and enters. What is your experience as to the boy continuing?

Mr. LYSONS. Where those cases have been initiated by our committees, members of these committees have followed up the practice of keeping in touch with these boys and seeing to it, if possible, that they did remain in training and in such cases when offered that encouragement they have usually continued training.

The CHAIRMAN. You think the plan is justified in persuading the boy, although against his will, to discontinue the desultory work and enter training for a permanent profession?

Mr. LYSONS. Yes; unquestionably. That is entirely justified by our experience, at least.

The CHAIRMAN. Another question before you get away from the publicity side of the Elks' activities-that $50,000 donation-was that distributed through the board or by the Elks? Was the contract with the moving-picture industry between the industry and the Elks or between the industry and the Federal board?

Mr. LYSONS. The money was actually paid by the Elks' war relief commission.

The CHAIRMAN. That is what I wanted to know.

Mr. LYSONS. For the production of that picture.

The CHAIRMAN. Not through the board?

Mr. LYSONS. Not through the board. Part of it was paid through the custodian of our fund, Dr. Prosser. Some of it was paid directly by the commission. None of it was paid by the board as such. Another matter that has been mentioned here I think is very important, and that is the urgent importance of getting these boys into training as soon as possible after they leave the hospital. That is, from our experience, the best time to get them started on a training course. We have had instances of boys apparently willing to go into training, but after waiting a month or two before starting it at the end of that time they have had to be repersuaded to take it up in many cases. The delays of last year at the New York office in particular in getting these boys started in training, some of them waiting for weeks and months to be assigned to training, was almost fatal to the success of the work and would be so any place.

The CHAIRMAN. Are you sufficiently acquainted with what has been done to know what per cent of the boys who entered training leave it before it is finished?

I

Mr. LYSONS. I only know-not from direct knowledge; no. do know this, that our own committees have kept their men pretty well in training, even those who had to be persuaded to take it up in the first place. We have had comparatively few withdraw from the training courses where they have been put in training through the Elks' committees.

Mr. SEARS. Would they take the same training or complete the training you had persuaded them to, or would they change their training?

Mr. LYSONS. That has been variable. I recall a case we had from Indiana a few weeks ago of a boy who was on our support fund. He had been in the Canadian Army and had been assigned to a course in wireless telegraphy. After about four months in that

course he found it inadvisable to continue because he had a disability in his right arm at the wrist that made it impossible for him to become efficient in that work. In inquiring into his case we found that he had had a course of several months reading law before he was in the war and our committee was instructed to investigate his case personally and see whether it was practical to change his course and assign him to a law school. After two or three weeks' investigation a transfer to a law course was made on the recommendation of our committee and the dean of the law school of that vicinity. We have had some experiences of that kind. We do not hesitate to change a boy's training where it is demonstrated that that is the proper thing to do. The case I speak of was a support case on the Elks War Relief Commission fund.

There was about a year ago an arrangement between the Elks' war relief commission and the Federal Board for Vocational Training and the Bureau of War Risk Insurance which seemed to be a solution of this trouble causing delay in assigning these cases, and that was this: The Bureau of War Risk Insurance at that time, as it was told to us by Dr. Prosser, agreed to permit the Federal board to put in training immediately after examination by the medical department of the Federal board, or the doctors of the D. V. O., for example, where they examined a man and found him prima facie more than 10 per cent disabled, to put him in training immediately under the head of cases under investigation. Then his case was before the Bureau of War Risk Insurance to be investigated, and his status finally fixed; but in the meantime the boy was in training and getting his compensation. That arrangement was suddenly terminated. We were unable to learn why it was. But it certainly was a successful thing to do, or appeared to be so from our work, at least. It relieved us of a lot of work and seemed to give entire satisfaction to the boys.

The CHAIRMAN. I think, Mr. Lysons, that that grows out of the necessity of keeping close to the legal requirement. The War Risk Insurance could not have said how much compensation until they had fixed the rate of disability, and if the Federal board would undertake to pay the training allowance the law had said he is to receive, or a monthly disability allowance-whichever is greater (the War Risk Insurance on the basis of compensation, or the allowance fixed under the Vocational Board)-and it was anticipating somewhat by proceeding to fix the basis of compensation, but it had not yet been a rating. Under the Government, you have to hold strictly to the legal requirements.

Mr. LYSONS. I understand that, of course, and I am wondering whether that practice could be legalized and the boys paid the regu lar allowance of $80 a month while in training, and have that adjustment go forward.

The CHAIRMAN. That has all been cured since the amendment of July 11, and the Federal Board now can be the judge instead of the War Risk Insurance. That amendment was intended to clear up the particular thing you are now mentioning. That was July 11 last.

Mr. LYSONS. After that has been done that will tend toward complete efficiency in getting these boys into training without delay. I

am not familiar with that phase of the matter in recent months because by the middle of last summer our work had become somewhat automatic and we since that time have not been giving it the personal investigation formerly required. Our committees in the subordinate lodges have been looking after the cases in the different communities and reporting them to our central office in New York. Our National Elks War Relief Commission has not been called upon during recent months to give the personal attention to these cases that we did formerly.

The CHAIRMAN. The compensations came in so rapidly to the War Risk Insurance Bureau that they were away behind with their cases. consequently the amendment was to let the Federal Board be the judge of these disabilities and in the meantime the man should be paid, and now, the delay, if there is delay, is due to whatever disorganization or lack of organization or inability to cover all these cases that come upon the board at once.

Mr. LYSONS. I learned that from my experience with the board; that that delay was due to the clogged condition of the Bureau of War Risk Insurance. We were having cases brought to our attention continually by boys who had been waiting for training from several weeks to several months, and I personally investigated a large number of those cases and found that in practically all of them the delay was due to the condition of the Insurance Bureau.

The CHAIRMAN. The War Risk Insurance Bureau was simply overwhelmed. They were back in their correspondence for months, and due to the tremendous rush of cases at the close of the war, and whether it was a physical impossibility or not to keep up we do not know, but Congress undertook upon the recommendation of Secretary Glass, then Secretary of the Treasury, to correct that, to relieve them by passing over that particular function to the Federal Board. That has been done, and I think much relief since that has come.

Mr. LYSONS. It is quite possible that that is the case. Unless those boys can be assigned when they want to be, and within a reasonably short time, the work will not be successful. If this defect has been cured it has afforded a great deal of relief and cured a very pitiable condition that has existed in the past among the boys. One must have personal experience with these boys and come in personal contact with them to appreciate the really pitiable condition many of them are in. I have taken up the cases of boys who have been waiting several weeks or months for training and found that they were so bad off financially that they were sometimes poorly nourished. They would be told to go from the Federal board office to 280 Broadway, where the medical board was located, and that is 2 or 3 miles, and they were unable to walk and in many cases they did not have a nickel to pay car fare. I have personally seen men connected with the Federal board in New York hand boys 25 or 50 cents. I have repeatedly done it myself. I have taken them to the Red Cross or started them to the down-town office and asked them in to lunch and have never yet had a boy suggest going into any place except a cheap lunch counter, and have seen some of them eat ravenously, as though they were poorly nourished. It has been a pitiable condition that they have been in.

Mr. SEARS. Did I understand you to say that 280 Broadway was the Bureau of War Risk Insurance?

Mr. LYSONS. Yes; the medical bureau.

The CHAIRMAN. Was that the bureau?
Mr. LYSONS. It was at that time.

Mr. SEARS. I thought yesterday in the testimony it was stated it was at all times part of the Federal board.

Mr. LYSONS. They had an office at that time at 280 Broadway. Mr. SEARS. The Bureau of War Risk?

Mr. LYSONS. Yes; the medical department of it.

The CHAIRMAN. You have read the charges, have you not, against the board upon which this investigation was ordered?

Mr. LYSONS. I have not read them carefully. I have glanced through them; yes.

The CHAIRMAN. What have you to say from your own information-not an opinion, but from your own information-as to the validity of those charges?

Mr. LYSONS. I think I have stated, as far as I can from personal experience, my judgment about the condition of the work generally. The CHAIRMAN. For example, "We charge that the board has neglected disabled men."

There is a specific charge. It is serious.

Mr. LYSONS. I have seen cases of boys having their applications pending with the board for several weeks to several months. In many cases I personally investigated and found that at least the explanation of the Federal board people was that it was due to the clogged condition of the Bureau of War Risk Insurance; that under the law they could not put them into training until their cases were passed on by the insurance bureau and that, therefore, the board was helpless.

The CHAIRMAN. What about this statement, "We charge the board with inexcusable delay"?

Mr. LYSONS. I could not go on record on that one way or the other. The CHAIRMAN. Have you anything else you want to present? Mr. LYSONS. I would like to approve the suggestion made by Maj. Wickersham here that this general work should be coordinated as much as possible, the different departments that the boys have to do business with, to get their cases through and get in training, if possible, in one general department. That would be desirable, I think, in the work.

The CHAIRMAN. May I ask you as to your judgment as to how long this rehabilitation work will continue?

Mr. LYSONS. I only know of that by the estimate that we have received from the officials of the Federal board, which you can get better from them than from me.

In connection with that, the work and experience of our committees, I might again emphasize my judgment as to the importance of personal touch with these men in getting them into training. If there are 30,000 men who are eligible to training and 20,000 of them could be gotten into training by a personal touch, and only 5,000 of them actually do get into training, I think it would be chargeable to lack of personal contact, lack of personal touch in the right sort of spirit, a sympathetic spirit in the sense of sympathy for what is best for the boys and best for the Government.

The CHAIRMAN. Assuming that personal touch is necessary to effective work

Mr. LYSONS. Yes; I am convinced that it is.

The CHAIRMAN. Is there any reason why it can not be done? Mr. LYSONS. I do not think there is any reason why it could not be done. It might require a considerable appropriation of money to accomplish it, but I believe that a way could be found through subordinate Elks lodges, and especially through the posts of the American Legion which are found in practically every community, or will be, in the country. I believe that almost invaluable assistance in this work could be secured through cooperation with the posts of the American Legion and also with the home service section of the Red Cross.

The CHAIRMAN. That sort of cooperation would not be subject to criticism, would it, and a Government agency like the Federal board asking auxiliary nonofficial associations to assist, would that provoke any undesirable criticism and reduce the effectiveness of the work? Mr. LYSONS. I think it would unquestionably tend toward the accomplishing of the object desired to be accomplished in this vocational-training program, and if that is done certainly criticism would not be worth taking into consideration.

The CHAIRMAN. Your experience with the board, you representing the Order of Elks, leads you to testify that the cooperative circumstance is valuable?

Mr. LYSONS. I think it is very valuable; yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. I think we all agree that while we should be more or less callous to public criticism, yet it does have quite a distinctive effect upon the value of work that is being done. If criticism, especially such that is not justified, should be made constantly, made in the presence of the boys, I can see how that they would be put in an attitude of mind where they would not get the genuine training or the best results from it, so that while you say we ought not to pay too much attention to criticism, we must respect somewhat the public attitude, in order to get the best results. Do you agree with that?

Mr. LYSONS. Yes, sir; I agree with that. I might suggest also that I believe that paid officials should be provided in as many communities as it would seem warranted, following this work up and putting it into the hands of some one whose business it was to do that. That, I would think, should be done, and certainly would be valuable.

The CHAIRMAN. Is not that being done at present?

Mr. LYSONS. I think that there are not enough separate communities in which that is provided for.

Mr. TOWNER. I presume your immediate experience as representative of the Elks' commission has been with the New York officials? Mr. LYSONS. It has been; yes, sir.

Mr. TOWNER. Have you had any personal or immediate experience with the board here in Washington?

Mr. LYSONS. I am here occasionally and see the members of the board. We do our work in the particular districts where it comes up. In that connection we have, of course, some work in other districts than the New York through correspondence regarding cases taken up by our local committees in the different cities. We occasionally, and in fact frequently, have had our attention called to