Mr. ROLLINS. None of the 27. They all want to but are "unsatisfactory." Those marked "unsatisfactory unsatisfactory" are not suited to the

course.

Mr. DALLINGER. I understood you to say 27 in all?

Mr. ROLLINS. Twenty-seven that don't want it. We have about 50. Mr. DALLINGER. The other 23 are satisfied?

Mr. ROLLINS. Satisfied to stay there. They will all be satisfied as soon as they are suited.

Mr. DALLINGER. In other words, if this professor could get the Vocational Board to take away the 27 men who are unsuited for the training and do not like it, that he would form a class with the other 23?

Mr. ROLLINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BRAND. How old are you?

Mr. ROLLINS. I am 39; I will be 40 in December.

Mr. BRAND. How did you get into the war?

Mr. ROLLINS. I enlisted.

Mr. BRAND. At the age of 39?

Mr. ROLLINS. I was 38 when I enlisted.

Mr. BRAND. Are you a man with a family?

Mr. ROLLINS. No, sir.

Mr. BRAND. You said that one man down there had tuberculosis, that was put into clerical work?

Mr. ROLLINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BRAND. How do you know he had tuberculosis?

Mr. ROLLINS. His case was tuberculosis.

Mr. BRAND. How do you know that, of your own knowledge?

Mr. ROLLINS. I do not know, only what he said.

Mr. BRAND. You have just his word for it?

Mr. ROBBINS. Yes.

Mr. BRAND. You also stated that the doctors told a lot of those boys

that the Botanical Garden was a good place for them?

Mr. ROLLINS. He told one man. I said one man, Willis.

Mr. BRAND. Did you hear the doctor say that?

Mr. ROLLINS. No, sir.

Mr. BRAND. Who told you that?

Mr. ROLLINS. He told me that himself. I wrote the note and gave it to Mr. Clark.

Mr. BRAND. I just wanted to get the source of your information. You say all those men were sent down there by the board were notified to go to that place. Who told you that?

Mr. ROLLINS. The professor there said himself they were fitted. Mr. BRAND. Professor who?

Mr. ROLLINS. The professor of the school.

Mr. BRAND. Were you present when these boys went to the board from time to time to be assigned?

Mr. ROLLINS. No. I did not know them until they came up there. Mr. BRAND. Then you would not know what occurred between them and the officers of the board who sent them down there?

Mr. ROLLINS. No, sir.

Mr. BRAND. You do not know what they told the officers?

Mr. ROLLINS. No, sir.

Mr. BRAND. Or what the officers told them?

Mr. ROLLINS. No, sir.

Mr. BRAND. Then all your information is from these men themselves?

Mr. ROLLINS. From the men themselves; yes, sir. It seems like this committee has a kind of impression that the men that went overseas were mentally crippled.

Mr. BRAND. I was trying to show that your knowledge was offhand and was all hearsay testimony?

Mr. BRAND. You were not at the New York office at any time when your men were there?

Mr. ROLLINS. No.

Mr BRAND. How do you know but what they went down there of their own consent?

Mr. ROLLINS. Went down where? They told me they went there against their will. I just had their word for it. I was made chairman of that committee to look out for their interests and they told me what they asked for. They told me that the board put them off and it would be two weeks or a month before the board could place them. They got nervous after they were there so long without getting other places and asked me to see about it.

Mr. BRAND. You do not know but what they consented to go down there in the first instance, of your own knowledge?

Mr. ROLLINS. They were sent down there and some of them stayed a couple of weeks. I did not run the board. I can not tell you anything about that.

Mr BRAND You did not know anything about it there?

Mr. ROLLINS. I do not think anybody does.

Mr. BRAND. Your testimony is entirely hearsay?

Mr. ROLLINS. First I talked with these men. I was representing these men before the board.

Mr. BRAND. I do not say you are misrepresenting them. Mr. ROLLINS. I was representing these men and I asked them to give me the facts and they told me they wanted to change the course. That is all I know. I do not know how they get through the board. I do not see how anybody got through the New York office.

The CHAIRMAN. You must realize that the committee is entirely unprejudiced in the matter and is trying to get the facts and some of the questions might seem a little antagonistic.

Mr. ROLLINS. It seems from a lot of the questions that you take these soldiers who whipped the Germans to be mental cripples. It seems like you think that the board is better able to advise them what course they could take than the men themselves. A man 20 or 30 years old, I think he is old enough to know what he want to do in his future life. If he does not know then he never will. No man can tell him.

The CHAIRMAN. Of course, there is some ground for a diversity of opinion. The men of age probably would know what they could do. We know they would ask for what they wanted to do believing that they could do it and it is still a question whether a great deal of this complaint about being misplaced is not on the boys as well on the board. There is still some doubt on my mind about that.

Mr. ROLLINS. There could not be any doubt in this way, that the man went down there that could not talk English and is going to

hear lectures in botany in English, I do not see how that man-if he is not misplaced there, where he would be misplaced.

The CHAIRMAN. If your statement is true I would agree with you. Mr. ROLLINS. We have several of them there. I could bring one of them that does not even speak English.

Mr. DONOVAN. Supposing a man can not speak English. There are two sides to the science of botany, theory and practice.

Mr. ROLLINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. DONOVAN. I want to ask you about this. You state there are 27 names here on this list.

Mr. ROLLINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. DONOVAN. I count 25.

Two are stricken off.

Mr. ROLLINS. I counted one, William J. O'Brien.
Mr. DONOVAN. And Holt.

Mr. ROLLINS. Holt, I do not know anything about.

Mr. DONOVAN. It does not appear here what the medical finding was on the disability of any of those men. I will hand the paper back to you. [Handing paper to witness.] That does not show what the medical finding was in any instance of those 25 remaining names on that sheet?

Mr. ROLLINS. No, sir.

Mr. DONOVAN. Do you know, as a matter of fact, what the majority of the medical findings were as to their disabilities?

Mr. ROLLINS. No; I am not the board. Mr. Clark is the one to answer that.

Mr. DONOVAN. Assuming that some of those men on that list had tuberculosis or any disease whereby they would be benefited by outdoor life and engaging in that occupation; do you think then that the board would make a mistake in assigning these men there with the idea primarily of keeping them in the open air and trying to buck them up by some employment that would occupy them and keep their minds off of their disability?

Mr. ROLLINS. I can not agree with you there.

Mr. DONOVAN. I do not know as to you agreeing with me, but it is whether you think the board should be criticized, assuming what you have stated to be the fact.

Mr. ROLLINS. I can tell you of two cases.

Mr. DONOVAN. If you will pardon me a moment, I am simply asking you, assuming that that is so, and if there are none, my assumption is improperly predicated. If there is any it is a fair inference. If you do not know, you can not enlighten us on that.

Mr. ROLLINS. I can enlighten you. I know of the Denny Greebler

case.

Mr. DONOVAN. What effect would that have upon him physically and what effect mentally?

Mr. ROLLINS. Not mentally, no. I do not think there are any mental cripples out there at all. I think they are very able to know what they want.

Mr. DONOVAN. Is it not a fact that in some instances, not in a great many, that a man that has been gassed gets tuberculosis sometimes as the second result of his being gassed?

Mr. ROLLINS. May be it is, sometimes.

Mr. DONOVAN. If that is so, and if any of these men are among that class or type, do you think that the board made a mistake in sending

the men to a vocation which gave them an outdoor life and still an occupation, either by attending the lectures or by doing some of the practical work, that they made a mistake in doing that or sending them there?

Mr. ROLLINS. Here is Edward Downey.

Mr. DONOVAN. You are not answering the question.

Mr. ROLLINS. What is that?

Mr. DONOVAN. Whether you think that in the case you refer to of the man that was gassed, if there were any others with tuberculosis, sometimes following as a result of that, that any case of that character where the board sent a man to the Botanic Garden for outdoor air and life, that they made a mistake in putting them where they could get good open air and at the same time have employment in a reasonable occupation?

Mr. ROLLINS. I am not a doctor and could not say.

Mr. DONOVAN. What is your opinion? I am not a doctor, either. Mr. ROLLINS. I would not want to pass an opinion.

Mr. DONOVAN. What is your guess?

Mr. REED. I make the point of order that a man under oath is not required to guess.

The CHAIRMAN. The point of order is sustained.

Mr. DONOVAN. I reply to the point of order that these witnesses had all been guessing here, and if the gentleman from New York is going to make that ruling I insist from this time on that it be carried out with every witness who is heard.

The CHAIRMAN. A member of the committee would not ask a witness to guess.

Mr. DONOVAN. Of course, I would give way to the senior and learned chairman.

Mr. ROLLINS. This boy Downey was gassed and has tuberculosis. He wants poultry farming. That would be outdoors. He wants to raise poultry. He expects to start in business and he wants to learn all about poultry. Some of these men out there expect to start in business and do not expect to work or be laborers for somebody. It is in their minds to be in business for themselves, I am sure.

Mr. DONOVAN. I think that is a right and proper ambition. Mr. ROLLINS. The board has practically told this man Edward Downey that, and he wants to start in the poultry business.

Mr. DONOVAN. Why have they not placed this man at a school for the poultry business?

Mr. ROLLINS. They are sending students to a farm in Connecticut that is taking students. I got that from Mr. Pyles. He told me he was going to send these men down there, but they have not gone yet. I do not know why it is.

The next is Hugh Fagan, a man that wants farming; is what he would like to have.

Mr. BURROUGHS. I was not here when you first took the stand. I did not hear your statement as to where you live?

Mr. ROLLINS. My home is in Maryland.

Mr. BURROUGHS. What officials of the board have you come in contact with; any?

Mr. ROLLINS. What officials?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Have you come in contact with any officials of the Vocational Board at all, anywhere?

Mr. ROLLINS. Yes; in the Washington office. I can speak of one because he is a minor clerk, a man who helped me through in this Washington office. He is a minor clerk. He gave me the tip how to get through.

Mr. BURROUGHS. Who was that man?

Mr. ROLLINS. It might cause him some trouble, but he is one man whom I met in the whole Vocational Board that has tried to help a man through.

Mr. BURROUGHS. I was just going to ask you in my next question what your experience had been, whether you had found that the men that you had come in contact with had an attitude of hostility or an attitude of impatience and not of sympathy with the men. Has that been your experience?

Mr. ROLLINS. All except this one instance that I told you about, and that is just a minor clerk. The board has got Jerry beat maneuvering to cut you out. It seems queer to me, after I was discharged as total disability, and was six months in getting it through, and before I was discharged the man at the Walter Reed Hospital representing the Vocational Board had the whole data of my case, and he told me, "You will get your training in at least a month." I saw some of the other fellows who had waited, and I went to work and waited a month. I went back to the board again here in Washington. They never heard of me, and I made another application. I had to go in there and get it again. I was there from the 5th of July until late in December, when I got it, and it was six months; it was with total disability.

Mr. BURROUGHS. If that is a fact, it does seem like a long time to wait. I agree with you on that.

Mr. ROLLINS. I went to a lot of trouble at Walter Reed to get all that data. I was in the military service, and you have to use a lot of respect to get it from these officers, and have to catch them in a good humor to get it. I got them to give me the data and went to a lot of trouble to get all this together, so that my case would go right straight through.

Mr. BURROUGHS. I do not think it was the idea or intent of Congress in passing of this law that men should wait for the determination of their cases.

Mr. ROLLINS. No.

Mr. BURROUGHS. They should not wait anything like such a length of time as that.

Mr. ROLLINS. It seems to me that the law would be all right if it had been carried out. It is a failure to carry it out.

Mr. BURROUGHS. That is all.

Mr. ROBSION. What is the name of that institution?
Mr. ROLLINS. The New York Botanic Gardens.
Mr. ROBSION. What age man is that professor?

Mr. ROLLINS. I should say Prof. Boynton is between 35 and 40. Mr. ROBSION. Does he appear to be willing to see the men and well suited to give the training that you went there to receive? Mr. ROLLINS. Yes, sir. He is a professor from Cornell; I would not say for sure.

Mr. ROBSION. You know, without hearsay, that there are about 50 men?