The

The CHAIRMAN. The business relationship is individual. university deals with the individual student?

Mr. DANIELSON. I don't get that question.

The CHAIRMAN. The student pays the university himself?
Mr. DANIELSON. The individual; yes.

The CHAIRMAN. While, in regard to the rehabilitation student, you deal directly with the board?

Mr. DANIELSON. Yes, sir; with the board.

The CHAIRMAN. How are these boys admitted, all at once?

Mr. DANIELSON. No; at different times, depending upon when they present themselves, and a letter from the board authorizing their training. Those letters are presented to me as counsellor, and to the registrar. The registrar will register the man for the subjects he wants to take. That may run along from the opening of a session for about two weeks, sometimes three weeks.

The CHAIRMAN. What is the character of the contract you have with the Federal board, as to when they are to pay?

Mr. DANIELSON. Well, there is no contract in regard to payment. The CHAIRMAN. You don't have any agreement about that at certain periods?

Mr. DANIELSON. The agreement was in the beginning: the Federal Board sent us a regular contract stating that this man has been assigned to the university for training. It did not limit, as far as I remember, the amount that was to be charged. It could not, because we charge on a point basis and not a flat fee.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, this $15,000, how long has that been owing to the university?

Mr. DANIELSON. Well, our spring session opened up the 3rd of February, the 3rd or 4th of February, and the fees are supposed to have been paid then. We allow a week for a man to pay his fee. The CHAIRMAN. You say you have not submitted a bill?

Mr. DANIELSON. I have not submitted a bill.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you reasons for believing that if you had submitted a bill it would not have been paid?

Mr. DANIELSON. Up until recently. It has been intimated-it was conveyed to me over the telephone that my bill ought to be presented, but I have not presented it because I was told it would not be paid until the end of the session.

Mr. TOWNER. How many students did you say you had, Mr. Danielson?

Mr. DANIELSON. In the spring session, 159.

Mr. TOWNER. Most of those students are assigned to what division? Mr. DANIELSON. To all divisions in the subjects in the college, extension teaching, in journalism; some are far enough advanced to take graduate courses.

Mr. TOWNER. Some are taking graduate courses?

Mr. DANIELSON. Yes. The question of degree fees is coming up now. Some of them are going to graduate and take a baccalaureate degree of A. B. in June, and that is a question I haven't been able to settle yet, whether the Federal Board will pay the fees or not. Mr. DONOVAN. Mr. Danielson, I understand the dues that were payable on February 1 last to date have not been paid?

Mr. DANIELSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. DONOVAN. That somebody has requested you to submit your bills, and you have not submitted them?

Mr. DANIELSON. They have not requested.

Mr. DONOVAN. Well, it has been suggested to you?

Mr. DANIELSON. Yes; it has been suggested.

Mr. DONOVAN. And you have not done so?

Mr. DANIELSON. I have not.

Mr. DONOVAN. Has it been the policy or the desire of the college or university to employ the attitude which is rather general by educational institutions, to be somewhat philanthropic or kindly in accommodations in the training of these young men, so far as the financial arrangement is concerned, or as to their individual comfort and betterment?

Mr. DANIELSON. I have personally loaned the boys money from my own pocket.

Mr. DONOVAN. I know about you all right, your office or mine. but I mean now the university.

Mr. DANIELSON. The university has been very lenient with the boys, and I think the entire staff is in sympathy with the training.

Mr. DONOVAN. But in regard to the contract, as far as tuition is concerned, the university feels that it can not afford to wait longer than it has for payment?

Mr. DANIELSON. Yes; that is so. There is no question about it, it is a drain on our endowment which we can not afford. As you know, all colleges are out now asking for money, and it cost us between $500 and $600 a year interest.

Mr. DONOVAN. In other words, the kindness or the philanthropy does not go to the extent, as applied by the university, to waiving that requirement?

Mr. DANIELSON. Well, that would not pay our bills.

Mr. DONOVAN. Of course it would not, and that is why you don't waive it.

Mr. DANIELSON. That is the idea, exactly.

Mr. NELSON, I have just one question.

I believe the statement was made that some one told you that the bill would not be paid, and therefore you have not presented it. Who told you that?

Mr. DANIELSON. I beg pardon?

Mr. NELSON. I think you made the statement a while ago that the reason the bill had not been presented was that you had been told that it would not be paid until the end of the session?

Mr. DANIELSON. Yes.

Mr. NELSON. Who told you that?

Mr. DANIELSON. I don't know. It was told to me over the telephone.

Mr. REED. It is a little curious-you say you were told over the telephone. Were you told that by somebody in New York or Washington in an official capacity or private, or how?

Mr. DANIELSON. I didn't get your question.

Mr. REED. You say you don't know who told you over the telephone?

Mr. DANIELSON. It was the New York office-some one in the New York office.

Mr. REED. Of the Federal Board?

Mr. DANIELSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. ROBSION. I believe you say you have 159 students at your institution?

Mr. DANIELSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. ROBSION. From your observation, I should like to know what you think of this test attending this training of the young men ?

Mr. DANIELSON. I think it is proving a great success. Every boy that I have talked with-and I have talked with many-is very earnest. We haven't one that I know of at Columbia that does not appreciate the training and is getting a benefit from it.

Mr. ROBSION. There has been some discussion in the past that a great many young men are signing up for this training for the purpose merely of drawing the pay. Have you had any experience like that in Columbia?

Mr. DANIELSON. No; they could not stay at Columbia under those conditions. The officers themselves the teaching staff-would weed them out and put them out.

Mr. ROBSION. Have you found any cases in which the young men were attempting to take the course, or take a course of study for which they were not fitted or qualified?

Mr. DANIELSON. Yes; there have been several of those, and Prof. Jones, the director of admissions, and Dr. Patterson have talked with those young men and tried to put them in a place where they should belong. In several cases they left the university on that account. I had one just before I came up to Washington of a young man that had not had any--I think only second-grade education and was not qualified to go into the classes that we had, so we put him into the home-study class. Now, whether the Federal board will pay for that I don't know. If they do not, some of the rest of us are going to pay for it.

Mr. ROBSION. Leaving out of the question our duty to take care of the soldier boys, does the vocational training pay, in your judgment?

Mr. DANIELSON. Yes, sir; it does. I am positive of that.

Mr. ROBSION. From your observation of the working of the vocational law, have you any suggestions to make for its improvement? Mr. DANIELSON. No; I don't think I am quite qualified for that. That is the educational side, and I don't think I want to say much about it.

Mr. ROBSION. Do you have any criticism to offer to the law or to the administration of the law, except the delay in settling the amount due to your institution?

Mr. DANIELSON. Well, there has been confusion of methods from the start. It seems to me that there should be a man at the head of that office who has had business training, a man of broad mind and Vision.

Mr. ROBSION. Now, you say, "that office." What do you mean? Mr. DANIELSON. I mean the New York office. My experience has been altogether with the New York office.

Mr. ROBSION. Is it your opinion that the man who has had charge of that office does not possess those elements or qualifications?

Mr. DANIELSON. I do not know that. I do not know Mr. Clark. He came on very recently, I think-only in the last few months. Mr. ROBSION. You say there is confusion and cross-purposes in the work, etc. I wish you would be a little more specific and definite.

Mr. DANIELSON. What I meant was the confusion of methods in the beginning. We sent our bills-we were told to make our bills on a certain form. The bills were left, possibly, in the files until they collected for several months and then we were told to make them up another way, and I think on three different occasions we were told to make those bills on different forms. I sent my secretary down to the office and she spent a part of two or three days trying to straighten out the matter, and finally the bills were straightened out and we were told how to do it, and the bill was paid, as I say, on the 17th of March.

Mr. ROBSION. Did you have trouble at the time Mr. Griffin was in charge of the New York office?

Mr. DANIELSON. I think that was the time I have in mind when the confusion of methods occurred during Mr. Griffin's and Mr. Farwell's time.

Mr. ROBSION. I notice that you confined, so far as your explanation in confusion of methods was concerned as relating to the bills, the finances?

Mr. DANIELSON. The financial part; yes, sir.

Mr. ROBSION. Now, have you any suggestions, or have you made any observations of any confusion of methods or cross-purposes, in the training and the other part of the work of the board?

Mr. DANIELSON. No; I would rather not go into the educational side, because I don't know enough about it.

Mr. ROBSION. But you think the training is a great success to the young men at Columbia?

Mr. DANIELSON. I do.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Dallinger has a question, Mr. Danielson. Mr. DALLINGER. I just wanted to ask you, Mr. Danielson, if any member or employee of the Federal board gave you any reason for the nonpayment of your bills at any time?

Mr. DANIELSON. No; that was the queer part of it. I could not get any reason for it. I could not get any answers. I wrote time and again, and there was no reply until very recently, and then after the propagation of the fact that the board owed us some money, I received a letter a day or two after that our bills would be paid the following week.

Mr. DALLINGER. Your relations were entirely with the District office in New York?

Mr. DANIELSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. DALLINGER. You don't know whether they sent the bills on to Washington or not?

Mr. DANIELSON. I do not know.

Mr. DALLINGER. And there never was any intimation made to you that the reason why they did not pay it was because they did not have the money?

Mr. DANIELSON. No, sir.

Mr. SEARS. In order that I may get it straight, you received the check in February; does that pay the university up until February?

4661-20-VOL 1-12

Mr. DANIELSON. No; I received a check in March, the morning of the 17th of March, for $7,900-about. They deducted several items which I shall have to take up with them later. They have deducted our chemical deposit accounts, which amounts to possibly $1,000 or more, which I will have to take up with them. There seems to be a dispute there as to the form of bill that they will accept.

Mr. SEARS. Mr. Danielson, up to what date did that check pay the university?

Mr. DANIELSON. It was supposed to pay up to the 3d of February, to pay our summer and winter sessions, with some exceptions.

Mr. SEARS. How much do they owe you now, approximately? Mr. DANIELSON. For the winter session they owe me approximately $15,600, and there were some disputed items, possibly $1,000

more.

Mr. SEARS. I ask that because I see it stated that they owe you $19,500.

Mr. DANIELSON. They paid $7,900 of that in February, since that statement was made. I believe that statement was $9,500 for the summer and winter session and $10,500 for the spring session, but that was not enough.

Mr. SEARS. This statement was made March 13?

Mr. DANIELSON. Yes. I guessed at that. I merely guessed at that. I hadn't our books written up at that time and I have had them written up since.

Mr. SEARS. And you are now preparing this bill to send to them? Mr. DANIELSON. I am.

Mr. DONOVAN. Mr Danielson, as I understand it now, the substance of the situation is that bills payable last September were paid on the 17th of March, clearing up everything with the exception of the disputed amount of about $1,000?

Mr DANIELSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. DONOVAN. That is still in abeyance to be adjusted.

Mr. DANIELSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. DONOVAN. The winter term, so called, started in February, 1920?

Mr. DANIELSON. The spring term.

Mr. DONOVAN. And it is now substantially March 30 and the bills for that spring term have not yet been paid; neither has the bill been rendered?

Mr. DANIELSON. That is right.

Mr. DONAVAN. And some one over the telephone told you to render the bill, and some one else told you it would do no good?

Mr. DANIELSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. DONOVAN. And the jury is still out?

Mr. DANIELSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. DONOVAN, That is all.

The CHAIRMAN. We are very much obliged to you, Mr. Danielson. Mr. Hartog, will you take the stand? State to the committee your full name and residence.