STATEMENT OF WILLIAM MURRAY, SECRETARY TO SENATOR WILLIS, OF INDIANA Mr. MURRAY. I happen to be a resident of the county of Knox in which this property is situated. The county seat is the city of Vin cennes. My purpose in being here before the committee today is to provide any local information the committee might care to have. I understand that the bill appears to be entirely unopposed as it was in the House. Just briefly, recognizing that there are no questions, the background of this situation is that Vincennes University is a land-grant college, many, many years old, and Harrison Park was originally granted by the United States to the city of Vincennes. The usual protective terminology was used at the time, that it should be perpetually used for park purposes only. It so happens that Vincennes is the ancient and historical seat of government of the Middle West. The first Governor was William Henry Harrison, our former President. Mr. Harrison's home, Grouseland, is preserved as a museum and is owned by the Daughters of the American Revolution. It is immediately adjacent to the four city blocks which comprise Harrison Park, which was named for the same President and patriot leader. Vincennes University now has property downtown in a rather congested area, and there appear to be funds from sources other than government, I understand, for the purpose of rebuilding it in a much more useful spot. The Harrison Park property now used as a city park farther out in the city, and not too busy as a park, it would seem could be put to more practical use by the university which you will note is a publicowned institution. The purpose of the present bill is purely to remove that unimportant provision that the property should be used only for park purposes, so that two worthy institutions, both originally Government grants, can be merged in the public interest. As a matter of fact, when the buildings are erected the grounds will still be available as a park for public use. The CHAIRMAN. There is no commercial interest involved? Mr. MURRAY. No commercial interest is involved. The CHAIRMAN. You feel that all of the people in your State are informed of the proposal, that is, those who would likely be concerned? Mr. MURRAY. That is true. The CHAIRMAN. And you have had no objection to the bill? Mr. MURRAY. No objection has been heard. The project has been widely circulated in the newspapers. They have an excellent newspaper of wide circulation in Vincennes, which has made frequent report, as have Indianapolis newspapers and the Bicknell Daily News, the other daily newspaper of wide circulation in Knox County. Incidentally, the subject matter originally was proposed by Judge Curtis Shake, a justice of the Indiana Supreme Court, an historian, and it has his support and the support of the leaders in Knox County and Indiana. The CHAIRMAN. I am sorry we can't take action on it this morning but it is obvious to you that we cannot. I hope you get action very soon. Mr. MURRAY. Thank you very much. Senator ANDREWS. I used to be a professor of history but it has been a long time ago. Vincennes is the battlefield between--was it the French and Indians and the British, or between the British and Indians and the American Revolutionary forces? Mr. MURRAY. The battling took place in both of those directions. Originally Vincennes was named Auposte, which is French for "The Post," I understand, the chief exchange post of the Middle West. So it became a focal point for battle between the French and the Indians and the Americans. Eventually it came into the hands of the British General Hamilton, who had his seat at Detroit at that time. When Washington was fighting in the East, Hamilton came down, recognizing Vincennes as the point he would have to hold if he was to hold the Northwest Territory. At that time George Rogers Clark, who originated in Alexandria, Va. -there is a monument to him there-came up with a band which he had made up himself under congressional grant, to protect that territory for the colonists. By a forced march he surprised Hamilton in the old log stockade at Vincennes, and by subterfuge and great generalship took the fort from a far superior British force, If the Senator is interested I can recommend some very interesting books. It is a little-known and a colorful chapter in our history. Senator ANDREWS. And there are two Harrisons? Mr. MURRAY. Benjamin Harrison is the grandson and the second President by that name. William Henry Harrison was the ninth President in 1841, early in history, and his grandson the twentythird president, from 1889 to 1893. Senator ANDREWS. One is the hero of Tippecanoe. Mr. MURRAY. That is William Henry, whose name is perpetuated in this park. · General Harrison governed the Territory here, and here treated with the Indians. The first capitol of any American area more extensive than a State or colony was the territorial hall, a two-story two-room frame structure which is preserved as a part of Harrison Park. Downstairs is the executive office from which were managed the affairs of the present States of Indiana, Illinois, Ohio, Wisconsin, and Michigan, and upstairs is restored the legislative chamber with crude hand-made benches of native walnut. The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much. Now, I should like, with the permission of the committee, to refer to H. R. 340, an act to authorize the legislature of the Territory of Alaska to grant and convey certain lands to the city of Sitka, Alaska, for street purposes. This bill was considered in the House on October 4, 1943. The purposes of the bill and what it would do were explained by Mr. Dimond, the Delegate from Alaska, and I doubt that there is any objection to the bill. I have here a letter from Secretary of the Interior Harold L. Ickes, to whom I submitted an inquiry on the proposal, and he favors the passage of this bill, by the Senate, in its present form. I should like to make his letter a part of the record and then await a full meeting of the committee before we attempt to take any action. Senator ANDREWS. All right. (The letter referred to is as follows:) Hon. FRANCIS MALONEY, THE SECRETARY OF THE INTERIOR, Chairman, Committee on Public Buildings and Grounds, United States Senate. MY DEAR SENATOR MALONEY: By letter dated October 6 you have asked for my views on H. R. 340, a bill to authorize the legislature of the Territory of Alaska to grant and convey certain lands to the city of Sitka, Alaska, for street purposes, which was passed by the House of Representatives on October 4. Under date of April 27 I wrote to the chairman of the Committee on Public Buildings and Grounds of the House of Representatives recommending that the bill, if amended in certain particulars, be enacted. The House amended the bill as I suggested and it was passed on October 4. In its present form it meets with my approval in every respect. The Bureau of the Budget has advised that there is no objection to the submission of this report to your committee. Sincerely yours, HAROLD L. ICKES, Secretary of the Interior. The CHAIRMAN. I have here another bill, H. R. 1294, and this is important to me. It passed the House on February 15, 1943. It came to this committee. We considered it, and at the time I thought carefully, and unanimously reported it to the Senate. There was serious objection. We held hearings on the bill and gave it some study. There was objection to the bill in the Senate. As a result of that objection I asked that the bill be recommitted to this committee and it was recommitted on July 5, 1943. It was a bill reading as follows: That whenever, during the continuance of the present hostilities, the President shall determine that any equipment, materials, or supplies, now owned by the Government and devoted to a particular use, are urgently needed by some nongovernmental agency in connection with the prosecution of the war, are not subject to disposition as surplus, and cannot otherwise be obtained by such nongovernmental agency, the President may authorize the head of the agency having control thereof, in order to fulfill such need, to sell to nongovernmental agencies such equipment, materials, or supplies. Any such sale shall be for cash at a price not less than the appraised value for such property except in the case of property which either is not essential in its present use or can reasonably be replaced with less critical materials and is needed for scrap, in which case the sale may be at not less than the scrap value of such property. Any funds realized from the sale of such property, except property sold for scrap, shall be deposited in appropriate special funds in the Treasury and shall be available for replacement or emergency repairs of property under the control of the head of the agency: Provided, That funds not obligated for such replacement or repairs within two fiscal years after the cessation of the present hostilities shall be covered into the surplus fund of the Treasury. Because of the vigorous hostility to the bill, and on my own responsibility and reconsidered judgment, I asked that the bill be recommitted. We passed it at a time when an agency of the Government professed to be sorely in need of copper, and they felt that they might take obsolete trimmings or trimmings that might not be necessary in Government buildings, to be melted down for use in the war program. I don't think it was the intent of the committee to go beyond that, but a careful consideration of the bill shows the bill does go beyond that. At the next meeting I shall ask that we table the bill or vote it down. I don't think it is necessary at this time, and I don't think it is a good bill. It goes too far. It is farther than I myself want to go now, and farther than I myself would have gone at that time had I given it more careful consideration and study. I think it goes farther than the committee would want to go. I make this statement only for the record, with the thought that we can bring it up later and dispose of it. Senator ANDREWS. I agree with you, Mr. Chairman, on that. The CHAIRMAN. Senator Ball has a bill here, S. 1531, which would authorize employment of engineers in private practice for Government projects. I asked several of the departments of Government to give us a report on the bill and I have reports from the Postmaster General, the Treasury Department, Federal Works Agency, the War Department, the National Housing Agency, and the Veterans' Adminis tration. I have yet to get reports from the Interior Department and the United States Maritime Commission. I should like to make all of the reports which I have received a part of today's record and hold the matter in abeyance until a future date. If there is no objection, those reports will be made a part of the record. (The reports referred to are as follows:) Hon. FRANCIS MALONEY, POST OFFICE DEPARTMENT, Chairman, Committee on Public Buildings and Grounds, MY DEAR SENATOR MALONEY: In compliance with your request of November 16, 1943, for a report upon S. 1531, a bill authorizing employment of engineers in private practice for Government projects, I wish to state that this Department does not engage in any building-construction work, all Government-owned buildings for post-office purposes being erected under the jurisdiction of the Public Buildings Administration of the Federal Works Agency. Inasmuch as the activities of this Department would not be affected by the enactment of S. 1531, we have no comment to make thereon. It has been ascertained from the Bureau of the Budget that this report is in accord with the program of the President. Very truly yours, FRANK C. WALKER, TREASURY DEPARTMENT, Washington, November 27, 1943. DEAR MR. CHAIRMAN: Further reference is made to your letter of November 20, 1943, enclosing a copy of S. 1531, a bill authorizing employment of engineers in private practice for Government projects. The bill does not appear to affect any of the activities under the jurisdiction of the Treasury Department, and the Department, therefore, is not in a position to express an opinion as to the merits of the proposed legislation. Very truly yours, W. M. THOMPSON, Administrative Assistant to the Secretary. Hon. FRANCIS MALONEY, FEDERAL WORKS AGENCY, Chairman, Committee on Public Buildings and Grounds, United States Senate, Washington, D. C. DEAR SENATOR MALONEY: Reference is made to your letter of November 16, 1943, requesting a report on S. 1531, a bill authorizing employment of engineers in private practice for Government projects. Section 1 of the bill provides that for the purpose of reducing the cost of Government buildings and other structures and of stimulating interest in efficient designs, plans, and specifications therefor, any department or independent establishment in the executive branch of the Government having charge of the construction of any new building or other structure for the Government is authorized to employ competent professional engineers engaged in private practice to prepare or assist in preparing designs, plans, and specifications for any such building or other structure and to compensate them for such service. This section is similar to specific authority now granted by the Congress to particular agencies in carrying out programs or projects authorized by the Congress. Subsection (a) of section 2 of the bill provides that any such department or establishment is further authorized to employ such engineers to prepare alternate designs, plans, and specifications (termed "alternate designs") for any such building or other structure which is estimated to cost $200,000 or more, on the condition that such department or establishment may, if deemed expedient, pay the out-of-pocket cost of the preparation of any such alternate designs, including the cost of labor, material, supplies, general office overhead expense, and necessary travel and sustenance expenses incurred in connection therewith, but shall pay no salary or other compensation for such engineers, except as provided in subsection (b) thereof. Subsection (b) of section 2 of the bill provides that alternate designs shall be advertised and submitted for bids at the same time and under the same conditions that the designs, plans, and specifications prepared by the staff of such department or establishment (termed "base plans") are advertised and submitted for bids. Alternate designs may apply to the structural design or any division of the work, except the architectural work of a building, but bids shall be solicited on the alternate designs and the base plans for the complete building or structure in each case. Subsection (b) further provides that if the low bid or the sum of the low bids on the alternate designs compared with the low bid or the sum of the low bids on the base plans shows a prospective gross saving for the complete building or structure to the Government equal to or greater than twice the amount of the fee or fees and out-of-pocket costs of the private engineers who prepared the alternate designs, the Government shall pay them such fee or fees and such costs. This subsection then provides that not more than two alternate designs shall be prepared for each division of the work for each building or other structure, and if two alternate designs are prepared for any division, one fee only may be paid in connection with such division and that to the private engineer on whose alternate designs the low bid is submitted. It is then further provided that the alternate designs shall comply with Government building codes and standards and be equal to the base plans as to strength, durability, utility, and quality, all of which shall be clearly defined in writing to the private engineers before the alternate designs are prepared. The present practice and procedure, I am informed, throughout the executive branch of the Government is to employ, by contract or otherwise, the professional services of engineers, architects, or other experts and consultants whenever the same, in the discretion of the head of the Department, may be required, for the formulation of the design, plans, and specifications for any work or structure in which the Federal Government is interested. There is thus mutual effort and cooperation of common concern to those who by their ability and experience are entitled to act in a professional or consulting capacity and those officers of the Government who are charged by the Congress with undertaking a program or a particular project. The result, it is believed, affords to the Government and the public a more efficient and economical utility than could otherwise be obtained. Since the bill as drafted would increase project costs by duplicating work and require additional funds for administrative supervision, out of proportion to economies effected or efficiencies obtained, this Agency is constrained to recom |