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The CHAIRMAN. When were they constructed?

Mr. BICKFORD. They were constructed in 1951 and 1952.
Mr. BROUT. 1953, also.

Mr. BICKFORD. And 1953.

The CHAIRMAN. How many FHA houses were built?

Mr. BICKFORD. There were close to 2,200 that were built at that time, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. By private capital?

Mr. BICKFORD. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. And your position is, if you build these two-hundred-and-some-odd houses why it will affect the FHA houses that the private people they have constructed?

Mr. BICKFORD. They will vary very greatly, sir, because when the military endeavors to make a survey for their needs-I was told by the military, at least in questioning with them, that they consider everyone on the post.

Now, there is a demand for housing there, and that can be misconstrued in certain representations that the military will make, because they will admit that they cannot take the lower grades and put them in Capehart housing. Those people live in trailers, and in very substandard units. Now, not by these maximum square-foot areas. They live in substandard housing, where they will have no heat, we will say, where all the heat they will get will come out of

a cook stove.

They utilize all of the people on the post whether they can house them in Capehart housing, or whether they cannot, They also take all people that live in trailers.

Now, I know for a fact that the vast majority of people in that area that are living in trailers are doing it through choice. Because if they can live in a trailer and live at a very low expense, they can pocket the difference between their quarters allowance and that, and they prefer to do it. When they are transferred they can then move their trailer on with them.

A number of people would rather live in these rental units that do rent down as low as $50 a month for a two-bedroom house, rather than go and live in the Capehart units. And there have been instances there I believe where people have been ordered out of private housing in order that they might fill up the Capehart housing. Mr. RIVERS. What would you expect them to do?

Mr. BICKFORD. Well, I would think, sir, that if you had to order someone to move out, where he was perfectly happy

Mr. RIVERS. He isn't running the Army.

Mr. BICKFORD. I am sorry; I didn't get that.

Mr. RIVERS. Someone else is running the Army. He is in the Army. When we approve a Capehart project, we expect that Capehart project to be occupied.

Mr. BICKFORD. It would have to be, sir, I agree.

Mr. RIVERS. We expect that. If a man wants to live in a trailer, that is just too bad. That is why we go into these things.

Mr. Vinson had a committee look into these things. We don't let anybody live in a unit of less than 1,080-what is it, Mr. Kelleher? Mr. KELLEHER. 1,080.

Mr. RIVERS. 1,080. Do you know how large 1,080 square feet is?

Mr. BICKFORD. Yes, sir.

Mr. RIVERS. It is pretty small.

Mr. BICKFORD. It is more than I can build for people with an income. of $350 per month.

Mr. RIVERS. Can you live in a house less than 1,080 ?

Mr. BICKFORD. Yes, sir. Sir, in that area right now I have a 912 square foot house, and to date I have 90 of them sold, and I have only been able to deliver 4, on account of the weather. There is a terrific demand for houses of that square footage in that area.

The CHAIRMAN. Let me

Mr. RIVERS. That is the only place I found that in America. They don't do it in my country.

Mr. BICKFORD. Sir, I could build them smaller than that if Fanny Mae would take them, but that is the closest I could go to get Fanny Mae to take them, until a special assistance program came in effect. Mr. RIVERS. Wait, Mr. Chairman-that is all, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. How close are these FHA houses to the military activities?

Mr. BICKFORD. I think, sir, the majority of these will fit within the criteria setup, I believe, of 15 miles.

The CHAIRMAN. Fifteen miles?

Mr. BICKFORD. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. What would be the average distance, now, of the FHA houses that have been built to the military installation?

Mr. BICKFORD. How about yours, Al? How close are yours?
Mr. BROUT. Twelve miles.

Mr. BICKFORD. Mr. Brout's are within 12 miles. I would say mine are probably within 15 miles. Mine are closer to Langley Field, the units that I built. However, a number of them, sir, are occupied by people from Fort Eustis.

The CHAIRMAN. Then it is a distance of about 15 miles from the FHA houses to Fort Eustis?

Mr. BICKFORD. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. To your property. And about 12 miles from the other gentleman's project?

Mr. BICKFORD. That is correct, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, what is the total number of vacancies in the Fort Eustis area, of rental property, the total number?

Mr. BICKFORD. The figures that we have here, sir, are around 250 units. Now, there are probably more than that.

The CHAIRMAN. Only 250 units vacant in that area?

Mr. BROUT. Vacant.

Mr. BICKFORD. Vacant, that is right, sir. There are probaby more than that, sir. These are picked out in specific projects. They are the only figures I can give you.

I do know that a survey was run by FHA about a year ago and it was touch and go at that time as to whether we weren't overbuilt. We were confined in that area to the point that we were not allowed firm commitments to a builder; an operating builder to go out and construct houses until last spring, and it only opened up at that time because of the demand for low-cost housing.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, what is the average cost of the FHA houses? Around $8,000?

Mr. BICKFORD. Sir, the ones that we have had to build, I would say that the maximum mortgage that we had in 1951 and 1952 was around $7,500.

The CHAIRMAN. Seventy-five hundred dollars?

Mr. BICKFORD. That was the average mortgage.

The CHAIRMAN. And the average cost of a Capehart house today is around $16,000?

Mr. BICKFORD. That is correct, sir; and a $16,000 house in civilian life will take an income of at least $500 or better per month to occupy them.

The CHAIRMAN. How many units did you build?

Mr. BICKFORD. I built 462, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. How many of yours are occupied?
Mr. BICKFORD. I have a full occupancy.

The CHAIRMAN. All right. Are you selling them or renting them? Mr. BICKFORD. A lot of them, sir, we are now selling, because the people have lived in there over a period of time, and when their lease runs out they are offered the opportunity of purchasing it if they wish.

The CHAIRMAN. How many did this other gentleman-how many did you build?

Mr. BROUT. In housing, I built about 500.

The CHAIRMAN. How many of yours are occupied?

Mr. BROUT. All of them are occupied?

The CHAIRMAN. Are you at Fort Eustis?

Mr. BROUT. I beg your pardon, sir?

The CHAIRMAN. You are at Fort Eustis?

Mr. BROUT. Yes, sir; near Fort Eustis.

The CHAIRMAN. Where are the builders, then, that have vacancies? Mr. BROUT. We are talking particularly-the vacancies, sir, in the apartments and not in the houses.

The CHAIRMAN. The apartments that are built over the area there? Mr. BROUT. Yes, sir. We have 250 vacancies in the apartments. The CHAIRMAN. Were those the apartments built under FHA? Mr. BROUT. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. And they were large brick apartments?

Mr. BROUT. Brick, did you say?

The CHAIRMAN. Large brick and frame-stucco?

Mr. BROUT. Brick and frame.

The CHAIRMAN. All right. I think we have that information.
Now, let's hear from the Army.

Mr. REECE. Mr. Chairman, may I ask one question, for my benefit, of Mr. Kelleher?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. REECE. Did this committee authorize or accept the standards of houses built under the Wherry Act?

Mr. KELLEHER. This committee had no participation in that, Mr. Reece.

The CHAIRMAN. That is the Banking and Currency Committee.
Mr. RIVERS. We had nothing to do with that.

Mr. BROOKS. May I ask, Mr. Chairman, one question of the gentleman

Mr. REECE. I might add that I knew they were built under authorization legislation that was reported by the Banking and Currency Committee. I did not know, however, that there had been liaison between this committee and the Banking and Currency which involved defense housing.

Mr. KELLEHER. There was no

The CHAIRMAN. Off the record.
(Further statement off the record.)

The CHAIRMAN. We are up against it now.

Mr. BROOKS. May I ask a question now, Mr. Chairman?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BROOKS. You refer to the type of housing which a man with an income we will say of $500 would be expected to maintain. What proportion of a person's income would you think should be devoted to housing?

Mr. BROUT. Paul.

Mr. BICKFORD. The figures set by FHA will run anywhere from a quarter to a fifth.

Mr. BROOKS. From 25-from 20 to 25 percent?

Mr. BICKFORD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. BROOKS. Of the income.

Now, with a military guy, you would include not only his pay but all of the appointments.

Mr. BICKFORD. That is correct, sir.

Mr. BROOKS. And everything else in connection with his employ

ment.

Mr. BICKFORD. Sir, there, a staff sergeant or the equivalent, unless he had 2 dependents, and had had 6 years' service, could not qualify for a $10,700 house until the last pay increase. In the last pay increase we were able to qualify him on that basis.

The CHAIRMAN. Let me ask you this question if it doesn't embarrass you. The mortgage insured was around $7,500 ?

Mr. BICKFORD. That is correct, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. You are selling some of them today?

Mr. BICKFORD. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Would it embarrass you to tell the committee what you are asking for your houses?

Mr. BICKFORD. No, sir; it would not. The units appreciated about $1,000 to $1,500 over their original valuation as set up.

Now, they are being sold, sir, on a hand contract. In other words, the people are making their payments, and they pay about $10 a month more than they were paying in rent, and until such time as they take you see, we have amortized the mortgages down and at such time as they take them up they then get an assumption deed.

The CHAIRMAN. What would be the total asking price for a unit, on an average? The house has a mortgage of $7,500.

Mr. BICKFORD. The highest ones that I am selling right now, sir, run around $8,500. Mine happened to take a mortgage in there of about $6,900 and the balance, 10 percent, was my equity in the house. Since then we have paid them down considerably.

The CHAIRMAN. That is about the average over the country. I was thinking around about $8,000 would be the figure.

Mr. BICKFORD. A lot of mine are $8,000. I gave you my maximum, which was a three-bedroom house.

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Mr. BICKFORD. It isn't separated, but the land in there would run around-an equivalent lot such as they are on would run in the neighborhood of $2,200.

Mr. RIVERS. You are taking into consideration when you sell the house what the valuation of the lot would be?

Mr. BICKFORD. I will answer that this way, sir. That was taken into consideration when the original valuation was placed on it. Mr. RIVERS. Through FHA?

Mr. BICKFORD. Yes, sir.

Mr. RIVERS. Through FHA?
Mr. BICKFORD. That is right.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, gentlemen, very much. It is a privilege to have you here this morning.

Now, General, will you please come around with reference to Capehart housing at Eustis.

Mr. RIVERS. That is Colonel Symbol

Mr. KELLEHER. Colonel Symbol, sir.
Mr. BROUT. Thank you, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Go ahead, Colonel.

Colonel SYMBOL. Sir, I am Colonel Symbol, Chief of the Family Housing Division, Department of the Army.

Mr. Chairman, I would like to mention at this time that we have at Fort Eustis 90 units of Lanham Act housing, 53 units of housing that are converted hospital wards, and 80 units that are converted barracks. All these 223 sets are substandard and inadequate. have them on a rental basis.

We

We have agreed that when these 223 are built we will take these 223 off our housing inventory. In fact, we have already started that program; 40 of the 90 Lanham Act houses have already been disposed of.

We will take the 53 units from the hospital and the 80 from the barracks off of our inventory.

So these houses, Mr. Chairman, are replacement houses on the post, and what it will amount to is the people will be moving across the street. They are already living on the post. They will move across the street from substandard housing into adequate housing. There will be no mass movement from outside communities on to the post. Mr. RIVERS. Could I ask him a question right there, Mr. Chairman? The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mr. RIVERS. All of your Lanham houses are substandard?
Colonel SYMBOL. That is correct, sir.

Mr. RIVERS. And you were directed to replace them?

Colonel SYMBOL. That is correct, sir.

Mr. RIVERS. This is in consonance with that program?

Colonel SYMBOL. Correct, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Any further questions from any members of the committee?

Mr. BECKER. Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Becker.

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