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Mr. Gavin. You haven't the water. No matter how much rights, the question is: Why haven't you got the water! You say you have the rights. Good. But you haven't, and can't and are unable to get the water.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, if

Mr. Gavin. Tell us how you are going to get the water, even though you have the rights.

General ALLEN. Mr. Gavin, I think--and I think I am supported by California law as I state this—that the law gives us the prior right over any appropriator. Fallbrook does not have any right to water except in the application that it has filed for unappropriated water. That is water in excess of the 12,000 acre-feet. What they are taking they are just facetiously saying around that that is excess.

Nr. Gavin. Let me ask you a question. You say they are usurping water that does not belong, rightfully, to them?

General ALLEN. They are.

Mr. Gavin. How are you going to stop them? You tried, by law. It is in the courts. It has been hanging fire for several years. Tell me, in the event the court decides for you in your judgment and they continue to take the water, what are you going to do about it?

General ALLEN. Mr. Gavin, may I state it? The situation as it exists today

Mr. Gavin. Yes.

General ALLEN. This winter we filled our underground water basin with the rains and runoff. In addition to that, we were not able to hold back some 40,000 acre-feet of water that went into the riverwent into the ocean. That is the water that Fallbrook says that 60 percent of it is theirs, or 40 percent of it is theirs, under the provision of Public Law 547.

Mr. Gavin. And they are evidently taking it, too.
Mr. WILSON. No; they can't take it.
General ALLEN. They can't take it; it is gone.

Mr. Wilson. They are just talking about future water rights, and that will be settled by the suit. They are not taking any water.

General ALLEN. When the rights are established and it is determined there is enough water to support the expenditure of funds to build a dam

Mr. Gavin. Do you think there is?
General ALLEN. What is that?
Mr. Gavin. Do you think there is enough water?
General ALLEN. I have my doubts about it, sir.

Mr. Gavin. Yes; you said a few minutes ago the average yearly amount of water in the area-precipitation and so forth. How are you going to depend upon nature? You might run into 4 or 5 really dry years out there, where you wouldn't have any water at all. So, when you talk about average water, it is undependable.

General ALLEN. Mr. Gavin, this past 7 years—this year is the first exception in 7 that we have had, what you would call a wet year, that water ran into the ocean that we couldn't stop.

But each year we have had enough runoff. By properly husbanding the water that came down the stream, we have been able to fill our underground water basin. Our underground water basins, properly pumped throughout the whole area of the underground water supply,

are such that we are able to carry through any dry season, and, as a matter of fact, much further than that.

Mr. Wilson. Don't you also have an insurance policy in the form of this aqueduct that can supply any future amount of water that you need to support Camp Pendleton ?

General ALLEN. We do have.

Mr. Wilson. Here we have a big investment, of the Government, right now, and we are stymieing any improvements in it.

The CHAIRMAN. How much have we invested at Camp Pendleton, including the cost of acquiring it!

General ALLEN. $93 million.
The CHAIRMAN. How many marines have we there?
General ALLEN. About 34,000.
The CHAIRMAN. That is a division headquarters on the west coast.

General ALLEN. And some force troops, additional troops, and the base commander.

The CHAIRMAN. How close is Camp Pendleton to San Diego?
General ALLEN. About 35 miles.

The CHAIRMAN. And you have available to Camp Pendleton water from another source than from the Santa Margarita River?

General ALLEN. Yes, sir. Our reluctance to go into that program, Mr. Chairman

The CHAIRMAN. What?

General ALLEN. Our reluctance to go into that program until we found what our rights were in this water litigation is the fact that we can pump water from our own basins at about $12 to $14 an acre-foot and distribute it, rather than buying it from the Colorado River source at $42 an acre-foot.

The CHAIRMAN. That is right. Then you mean to say to the committee that you will get water, if you win this case, costing around $14, against that which you would have to buy at $42?

General ALLEN. If there is a requirement over and above what the river will produce. We are not going to relinquish our rights on the river.

Mr. BROOKS. Mr. Chairman.

General, may I ask this question? Suppose this city grows and develops and increases its need of water and they, in doing that, rely upon the overage, that is, the excess of the surplus water that you can't retain behind the dam and which normally goes into the oceansuppose it begins to rely upon that uncertain supply, what is going to happen if the supply is not available?

General ALLEN. They have no rights, Mr. Congressman.
Mr. BROOKS. I know they have no

General Allen. They have to import their water. They are importing water now.

Mr. BROOKS. How would they bring it in? You can't let people famish for lack of water. What will happen?

General ALLEN. They are tied into this aqueduct at the present time. Mr. BROOKS. They will be General ALLEN. They are getting their water from the Colorado River source supplied through

the metropolitan water district. Mr. Brooks. So they don't really need this water that is excess?

General ALLEN. They need it. And, of course, they benefit from it if they can take it from $12 to $14 an acre-foot rather than buying it from the Colorado River source at $42.

Mr. BROOKS. That is all.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, General, do you think we would be warranted to continue to develop Camp Pendleton with the assurance that we will not be disturbed on account of the water situation?

General ALLEN. Mr. Chairman, I am overly optimistic that this case is proceeding and that under California law we will get our rightful rights to water and we will get our correlative share, and which will be adequate to supply the needs of Camp Pendleton.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, General-
General ALLEN. I do, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, Admiral, what do you propose to do with this money? How do you spend this $5,138,000?

General ALLEN. That requirement, Mr. Chairman, is for an amtrack maintenance scale at $469,000.

An LVT ramp for our amphibious type training at $218,000.

Ordnance and repair shops for repairing and modifying the new equipment that is in the units, and more of it coming in.

A barracks at Camp Delmar, which is on the coast side, which will replace those barracks which were condemned and torn down. We had to dismantle them because they were unsafe to live in.

The utilities to support these above projects that I have indicated.

And there is $240,000 in there for additional water wells so that we can more properly husband the water that we have stored in those underground storage basins.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, now, tell me about the water wells. What do you propose to do?

General Allen. These wells, Mr. Chairman, will be properly located in the upper basins so we can pump from those upper basins and retire or delay pumping in those wells that are closest to the ocean, to preclude salt water intrusion from coming in there and completely destroying the well.

Because of the improper husbanding in prior years, we have lost the use of two wells, because they have salted up. And by proper pumping--and there have been continuous and extensive studies, geoIogical, to give us the information that is necessary to properly place these wells so that we can draw our water without running the probability of salting up any further wells.

Mr. Gavin. How far are these wells from the mouth of the river, General ?

General ALLEN. The ones that salted up, Mr. Gavin, are about a mile and a quarter to a mile and a half.

Mr. GAVIN. Pretty close, don't you think? General ALLEN. Yes, sir. I think had we known in 1941 and 1942 when we built Pendleton--in retrospect-I would say we should not have built that well, or those two wells, that close to the ocean.

The CHAIRMAN. Then you might go one step further and say if you had known you were going to have all of this trouble about the water, you probably would not have located it at Camp Pendleton. That is a proper statement.

Well, members of the committee

Mr. Gavin. May I ask a question-
Mr. DURHAM. Mr. Chairman.
The CHAIRMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. DURHAM. Isn't it a fact, General, that we have to look for water some place else except the Santa Margarita River, somewhere, somehow!

General ALLEN. No, sir; I don't think so.
Mr. DURHAM. I am talking about 25, 35, or 50 years from now.
General ALLEN. Well, maybe.
Mr. DURHAM. I think so.
General ALLEN. But we have the plan, sir-

Mr. DURHAM. You have the ocean out there. We needn't worry about it. [Laughter.]

General Allen. The Marine Corps continuously has looked at the development of fresh water.

Mr. DURHAM. We have already converted sea water into drinking water.

General ALLEN. We have problems here on the east coast with water.

Mr. DURHAM. We have in my State.
General ALLEN. Yes, sir.
Mr. DURHAM. We haven't enough water.
General ALLEN. We are going to have problems.
Mr. DURHAM. You have the sea.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, it all boils down-may I say this—if the Navy had known all the troubles that confronted Camp Pendleton when we established it there, probably we could have located it somewhere else better. But we have an invsetment-how much there now?

General ALLEN. $93 million.
The CHAIRMAN. $93 million.

At one portion we can get clear water, fresh water, coming down the river, and salt water coming up the river. So we are between salt

water and getting any kind of water. Mr. Gavin. You might say, General

The CHAIRMAN. We are in a bad situation at Pendleton about water. But we have an investment of $90 million there. I think we had better see what we can do with $5 million more and go ahead with this. We have been holding it up too long.

Mr. Gavin. May I call to the attention of the general that in Pennsylvania we do have all the water you need, fine, clear, crystal, spring water. And if you are ever going to locate any more bases, let's come up where you will never have any difficulty about the availability of water supply. And I mean that seriously. Don't get everything out there bunched in one particular spot. There are other sections of the country that should be given some consideration in the location of these bases, where you won't have the physical difficulties with the topography and the terrain and water and a few other things, that you are getting in these very close, cramped industrial areas that are expanding and growing, and you can't meet the conditions. Just as pointed out by Mr. Durham, what are you going to do 25 or 35 years from now!

Mr. DURHAM (presiding). Without objection, the item is approved.

Now, the next item. General ALLEN. Thank you, sir. Mr. DURHAM. What is your next item, General? Admiral AILEs. The next are ordnance facilities. Mr. HARDY. Does that finish all the Marine Corps? General ALLEN. Well, we have some small projects there. Mr. KELLEHER. Go to Parris Island. General ALLEN. We have one project for Parris Island: Improve. ment of electrical system. - No. this is a correction of deficiencies of the existing system that ls there. This item will make it more economical and cost us much less to operate. Mr. DURHAM. Without objection, the item is approved. Next item. Mr. KELLEHER. Go to Quantico. General ALLEN. Quantico, Va., a combat range. This is a range that is designed to meet modern marksmanship methods and is in the area for training for the new second lieutenants that are in school at that station. Mr. DURHAM. How much does that cost? General ALLEN. $168,000. Mr. DURHAM. Without objection, the item is approved. General ALLEN. The next item is “Marine §o Recruit Depot, San Diego, Calif.” That is similar to the one at Parris Island. It is a correction of deficiency to the electrical distribution system. That has been recommended by the power company, and we know that considerable savings can be made by reworking the existing system. Mr. DURHAM. Without objection, the item is approved. Next item. General ALLEN. Next item is for $241,000, maintenance shops at Twentynine Palms. These maintenance shops are to provide facilities for proper tooling and maintenance personnel to operate in the maintenance of the station. Part of this work is being done outside, and heat, sand, and weather are damaging the equipment, and this will provide us a closed, covered area for these men to operate in. Mr. DURHAM. You have been contracting for it outside? General ALLEN. No, sir; it is station maintenance personnel, sir. Mr. DURHAM. Without objection, the item is approved. Does that conclude the list? General ALLEN. That concludes the Marine Corps portion of the program. Mr. DURHAM. All right, Admiral; we will take up your items. Admiral AILEs. The next California item, that we skipped before, sir, is at China Lake, Calif., the naval ordnance test station. That is on line 18 and line 19 of the bill, sir. Mr. DURHAM. That is right. Admiral AILEs. Project No. 2 for this class is at the Naval Ordnance Test Station, China Lake, Calif. This station conducts research, design, development, limited production, test and technical evaluation of ordnance materials, components, assemblies, and systems principally

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