General ALLEN. I apologize for not having that in there, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. Well, isn't that correct?

General ALLEN. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes, sir. Now, how did we get rid of that statute? I remember quite well that not one dollar of Federal money could be spent to employ a lawyer or even permit the Department of Justice to intervene in representing the Government in this litigation.

The only way in the world that the issue was considered by the court was by lawyers volunteering their service; isn't that correct?

General ALLEN. Mr. Chairman, may I make this statement? I am not sure of my grounds too well, but it brings to thought something else.

I was under the impression, if my memory is correct, that that was a rider on the appropriation bill.

The CHAIRMAN. That is right, but nevertheless it was the law.
General ALLEN. That is right, it was the law.

The CHAIRMAN. It was in the law that not one dollar of Federal money could be used. It never happened in the history of this Government before, that Congress denied the right of the Government to prosecute a claim, by saying that no Federal money could be used to employ counsel. I was deeply concerned about it. I couldn't do anything. I was overwhelmingly voted down on account of the enormous influence and pressure.

Now I just wanted to put that in the record. Now, you say that agreements have been reached with a great many claims.

General ALLEN. Over 200 parcels.

The CHAIRMAN. All right.

General ALLEN. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Now to what extent do they participate? To the extent that they are getting a sufficient amount of water to meet their demands and lessen the amount of water that goes to Pendleton?

General ALLEN. They are getting their rightful correlative share, Mr. Chairman, and they have indicated what their requirements are and they indicate what they have the capacity to use, and that in effect

The CHAIRMAN. All right. After they dip out of the river what they want and everyone else, is there going to be enough water for Pendleton? That is the question that concerns the committee.

General ALLEN. Mr. Chairman, may I state this? I personally feel that there is not sufficient water in southern California for any one person, any one agency or activity, if all of their requirements are fully exploited.

It may be found when this litigation is over that the total amount of water that we require is not legally available to us in that stream. In that case, then we will have to come back to the Congress and ask for a project which we have preengineered and ask for imported water to supplement that amount of water that we will get from the water, which is our rightful share.

Mr. WILSON. Mr. Chairman, could I ask a question?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. WILSON. This is not in my district, but I am quite familiar with the ground up there.

20066-58-No. 86- -43

Now isn't it true that adjacent to Camp Pendleton runs two aqueducts which carry water from the Colorado River down to San Diego, for the metropolitan water company?

General ALLEN. There are 2 aqueducts, 1 in full operation now and the second one has been completed.

Mr. WILSON. Financed by the Navy. These aqueducts were financed by the Navy. And, Mr. Chairman

The CHAIRMAN. That is coming out of the All-American Canal. Mr. WILSON. I know, but the point is there is no possibility for Camp Pendleton dying on the vine there, because it has a source of water, just as every other naval installation in California has, tying in with water from the Colorado River.

The CHAIRMAN. Well

General ALLEN. We have a statement from the metropolitan water district who control the water from the Colorado River serving southern California, that they will give us water on off season.

The CHAIRMAN. Off season?

General ALLEN. Off peak, which is not too good an agreement. But we have an underground storage basin, Mr. Chairman, that the water doesn't evaporate from. We can take it on the off season and put it underground and pump it. Our requirements for water are protected there.

The CHAIRMAN. Of course, you have to buy that water that comes from the All-American Canal, that is from the intake of the Colorado at Yuma, across the State of California and through the Imperial Valley, and comes on up in the neighborhood of San Diego and southern California.

Now the Navy does purchase water today, does it not, for Camp Pendleton?

Mr. WILSON. Not for Camp Pendleton, but for the other naval installations in there.

General ALLEN. That is right.

The CHAIRMAN. Then Camp Pendleton is entirely dependent on the water of Santa Margarita River?

General ALLEN. At this time, that is correct.

The CHAIRMAN. I want to call your attention to another thing. Listen to this. While all this litigation was going on, during the period covered by these trials and appeals, Fallbrook sought and obtained legislation designed to settle their controversy with the United States. How did they accomplish this? This would construct a dam on Camp Pendleton, inundating also a part of the naval ammunition depot, and specifies a division of water with Fallbrook.

Now Fallbrook and all that section of the river gets what they want and what is left over goes to Pendleton.

General ALLEN. I think when the litigation is settled, Mr. Chairman, we will get our rightful share of water

The CHAIRMAN. What is our rightful share? We are under the assumption that all of it belongs to us.

General ALLEN. No, sir, we are not on the assumption that all of it belongs to us. We can use, under California law, water that we can put to beneficial use.

The CHAIRMAN. That is right.

General ALLEN. We think that to be about 12,000 acre-feet. The estimated amount of water in the stream, the annual average crop, should run between 23,000 and 27,000 acre-feet. So there is some excess or, under California law, unappropriated water.

The CHAIRMAN. Who has the first take, you or the riparian right owners up and down the stream?

General ALLEN. The riparian owners have first right.

The CHAIRMAN. That is right, exactly. He has the first take. What is left over goes to Pendleton.

Mr. WILSON. No, Pendleton is a riparian owner.

The CHAIRMAN. What?

General ALLEN. We have certain prior rights, Mr. Chairman, that can't be taken away from us by any subsequent appropriator. Mr. WILSON. Right. Sure

Mr. KELLEHER. The United States bought them when they bought the ranch in the first place.

The CHAIRMAN. But Fallbrook had a voice in it, too, because Fallbrook had already gone in there and had a contract prior to the Government acquiring this property.

Mr. WILSON. Mr. Chairman, the only thing that Fallbrook is contending for is for the so-called flood waters that come in occasionally. The basic water rights are acquired by Camp Pendleton and are owned by the Government today.

Mr. GAVIN. Yes, but Camp Pendleton is below the city of Fallbrook. So Fallbrook comes first and they are going to take the water if they want it, and the more they grow and expand and the population in

creases

The CHAIRMAN. Now

Mr. GAVIN. Let me continue. I listened to all of you for 10 minutes. As the population increases and the demands become greater, you are going to get less water at Pendleton, whether there is any laws or whether you like it or not. So why talk about it. If you had the first crack at it, it would be all right, but you aren't getting the first crack. You are getting the second crack.

Mr. WILSON. That is not accurate.

Mr. GAVIN. That population out there is growing, expanding, and developing, and there is going to be more demands made upon it and, in my opinion, you are going to get less water, regardless of any laws. Mr. WILSON. Mr. Chairman, under California water law, no one can deny Camp Pendleton the basic right they have to the water they are entitled to, and they can't put a dam and take it away from them, under California water law. So, Camp Pendleton is adequately protected. We are having the Marine troops out there living in tarpaper shacks because this Congress has failed to build some facilities, because we have been waiting for this suit to be settled. It is just a crime that we haven't gone ahead to provide these facilities. I think we ought

The CHAIRMAN. To correct on that point, when the Government acquired this property a prior contract had been entered into with the Fallbrook community, giving them certain rights, and we bought subject to those rights; isn't that correct?

General ALLEN. We bought those rights.

Mr. HUDDLESTON. It is a revocable license. We have those rights, and they can never be taken away from us.

Mr. GAVIN. You haven't the water. No matter how much rights, the question is: Why haven't you got the water? You say you have the rights. Good. But you haven't, and can't and are unable to get

the water.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, if

Mr. GAVIN. Tell us how you are going to get the water, even though you have the rights.

General ALLEN. Mr. Gavin, I think-and I think I am supported by California law as I state this-that the law gives us the prior right over any appropriator. Fallbrook does not have any right to water except in the application that it has filed for unappropriated water. That is water in excess of the 12,000 acre-feet. What they are taking they are just facetiously saying around that that is excess.

Mr. GAVIN. Let me ask you a question. You say they are usurping water that does not belong, rightfully, to them?

General ALLEN. They are.

Mr. GAVIN. How are you going to stop them? You tried, by law. It is in the courts. It has been hanging fire for several years. Tell me, in the event the court decides for you in your judgment and they continue to take the water, what are you going to do about it?

General ALLEN. Mr. Gavin, may I state it? The situation as it exists today

Mr. GAVIN. Yes.

General ALLEN. This winter we filled our underground water basin with the rains and runoff. In addition to that, we were not able to hold back some 40,000 acre-feet of water that went into the riverwent into the ocean. That is the water that Fallbrook says that 60 percent of it is theirs, or 40 percent of it is theirs, under the provision of Public Law 547.

Mr. GAVIN. And they are evidently taking it, too.
Mr. WILSON. No; they can't take it.

General ALLEN. They can't take it; it is gone.

Mr. WILSON. They are just talking about future water rights, and that will be settled by the suit. They are not taking any water. General ALLEN. When the rights are established and it is determined there is enough water to support the expenditure of funds to build a dam

Mr. GAVIN. Do you think there is?

General ALLEN. What is that?

Mr. GAVIN. Do you think there is enough water?

General ALLEN. I have my doubts about it, sir.

Mr. GAVIN. Yes; you said a few minutes ago the average yearly amount of water in the area-precipitation and so forth. How are you going to depend upon nature? You might run into 4 or 5 really dry years out there, where you wouldn't have any water at all. So, when you talk about average water, it is undependable.

General ALLEN. Mr. Gavin, this past 7 years-this year is the first exception in 7 that we have had, what you would call a wet year, that water ran into the ocean that we couldn't stop.

But each year we have had enough runoff. By properly husbanding the water that came down the stream, we have been able to fill our underground water basin. Our underground water basins, properly pumped throughout the whole area of the underground water supply,

are such that we are able to carry through any dry season, and, as a matter of fact, much further than that.

Mr. WILSON. Don't you also have an insurance policy in the form of this aqueduct that can supply any future amount of water that you need to support Camp Pendleton?

General ALLEN. We do have.

Mr. WILSON. Here we have a big investment, of the Government, right now, and we are stymieing any improvements in it.

The CHAIRMAN. How much have we invested at Camp Pendleton, including the cost of acquiring it?

General ALLEN. $93 million.

The CHAIRMAN. How many marines have we there?

General ALLEN. About 34,000.

The CHAIRMAN. That is a division headquarters on the west coast. General ALLEN. And some force troops, additional troops, and the base commander.

The CHAIRMAN. How close is Camp Pendleton to San Diego?
General ALLEN. About 35 miles.

The CHAIRMAN. And you have available to Camp Pendleton water from another source than from the Santa Margarita River?

General ALLEN. Yes, sir. Our reluctance to go into that program, Mr. Chairman

The CHAIRMAN. What?

General ALLEN. Our reluctance to go into that program until we found what our rights were in this water litigation is the fact that we can pump water from our own basins at about $12 to $14 an acre-foot and distribute it, rather than buying it from the Colorado River source at $42 an acre-foot.

The CHAIRMAN. That is right. Then you mean to say to the committee that you will get water, if you win this case, costing around $14, against that which you would have to buy at $42?

General ALLEN. If there is a requirement over and above what the river will produce. We are not going to relinquish our rights on the

river.

Mr. BROOKS. Mr. Chairman.

General, may I ask this question? Suppose this city grows and develops and increases its need of water and they, in doing that, rely upon the overage, that is, the excess of the surplus water that you can't retain behind the dam and which normally goes into the oceansuppose it begins to rely upon that uncertain supply, what is going to happen if the supply is not available?

General ALLEN. They have no rights, Mr. Congressman.

Mr. BROOKS. I know they have no

General ALLEN. They have to import their water. They are importing water now.

Mr. BROOKS. How would they bring it in? You can't let people famish for lack of water. What will happen?

General ALLEN. They are tied into this aqueduct at the present time. Mr. BROOKS. They will be

General ALLEN. They are getting their water from the Colorado supplied through the metropolitan water district. Mr. BROOKS. So they don't really need this water that is excess?

River source