Mr. BATES. Well, Mr. Chairman, the question that I wanted to ask has been partially asked by Mr. Price. Because I was concerned about the precedent here, too.

Do you have other locations throughout the United States where the safety factor is as serious as it is here, at San Jacinto, or is this really an isolated case where there is nothing quite comparable?

The CHAIRMAN. Nothing comparable.

Secretary HIGGINS. Yes; we have other installations, I think a number of them, Congressman Bates.

The CHAIRMAN. What are they, Mr. Secretary?
Secretary HIGGINS. Would you read them off?

Mr. ENGLANDER. Mr. W. H. Englander, Assistant Chief of Depot Operations.

Anniston Ordnance Depot.

The CHAIRMAN. What is it?

Mr. ENGLANDER. Anniston Ordnance Depot, in Alabama

Mr. ENGLANDER. In Anniston, Ala. The depot is roughly 10 miles west of Anniston, with a population of well over 30,000.

There is Blue Grass Ordnance Depot

The CHAIRMAN. That is 30 miles away. That wouldn't be a comparable situation to Houston.

Mr. ENGLANDER. Ten miles, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. KELLEHER. Ten miles.

Mr. BROOKS. One million people at Houston, though, and 30,000 at Anniston.

The CHAIRMAN. And the people at Anniston are not disturbed. They want it to stay there.

Mr. PRICE. Mr. Chairman, in that connection, may I bring out this point?

Was the Port Chicago, as far as ammunition operation, about the major ammunition catastrophe you had in recent years?

Mr. HERCZOGH. Yes, sir.

Secretary HIGGINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. PRICE. Is that right?

Secretary HIGGINS. That is correct.

Mr. PRICE. As a matter of fact, doesn't the record show that the only people who were killed or injured in this explosion were people actually working in the ammunition area?

Mr. HERCZOGH. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. PRICE. So this hazard would exist wherever you moved this base, wouldn't it?

Mr. HERCZOGH. Yes, sir; that is right.

Mr. ENGLANDER. Possibly, yes.

Mr. HERCZOGH. Of course, the reason, then-why more civilians. weren't killed at Port Chicago was due to the fact that it was late at night and most of them were in bed and weren't hit by flying objects. Secretary HIGGINS. I think the point made here was that we didn't have a blow in the storage area itself, it was at the piers.

Mr. HERCZOGH. That is correct, sir.

Secretary HIGGINS. It was humans handling the ammunition.
Mr. HERCZOGH. At the pier.

Secretary HIGGINS. Over one ship to get to another one, as I remember.

Mr. KELLEHER. That is right.

The CHAIRMAN. Go ahead and answer Mr. Bates', Mr. Witness.
Secretary HIGGINS. Read the next one.

Mr. ENGLANDER. In addition, there is the Blue Grass Ordnance Depot, in Kentucky. That is 25 miles southeast of Lexington, with a population of over 55,000.

The Letterkenny Ordnance Depot, at Chambersburg, Pa., which is 3 miles northeast of Chambersburg, with a population of over 20,000.

The Navajo Ordnance Depot, at Flagstaff, Ariz., which is about 9 miles west of Flagstaff, with a population of about 7,000.

The Pueblo Ordnance Depot, 15 miles east of Pueblo, Colo., with a population of about 70,000.

Raritan Arsenal, at Metuchen, N. J., which is 311⁄2 miles south of Metuchen, with a population of over 10,000; 41⁄2 miles east of New Brunswick, with a population of about 40,000, and about 25 miles southwest of New York, with a population of about 8 million. Mr. KILDAY. How far would you say this is from Houston, on the same basis?

Mr. ENGLANDER. San Jacinto, sir, is 15 miles east of Houston.

Mr. KILDAY. And from the port area? How far from the port area?

Mr. ENGLANDER. That would be roughly about the same from the port area. However, the Houston port area continues along the channel. The depot property is roughly about 21⁄2 miles from the limits of Greater Houston.

Mr. KILDAY. But it is built up out there. You mean the official city limits?

Mr. ENGLANDER. Well, from the official city limits; it is 15 miles. Mr. KILDAY. But

Mr. ENGLANDER. But Greater Houston and the suburban area; around 21⁄2 miles.

Mr. KILDAY. Surrounding-doesn't it surround this?

Mr. ENGLANDER. Not quite, sir. There is Channelview, which is a housing area, and that is at the northeast boundary of the depot. The CHAIRMAN. Any further questions?

Mr. ENGLANDER. And there is a population

Mr. BATES. Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Bates.

Mr BATES. Now, you would feel, as far as the safety element is concerned, it is present at these other locations that you enumerated to the same degree as at San Jacinto?

Mr. ENGLANDER. With this exception: I would like to make it clear that all of our ammunition depots meet our various safety requirements, and that sufficient distance is established between the boudaries of the depots and any of our ammunition stocks. So that, at most, if there were a maximum explosion in a storage area, the distances are sufficient to cause probably no more than superficial damage beyond the boundaries of the installation.

That would be cracked plaster, broken window panes and possibly the blowing in of doors.

The big difference between any of the other ammunition facilities and San Jacinto is that San Jacinto is not only a storage area, but an ammunition outloading area as well.

Mr. BATES. I understand that. That is the reason I asked you as far as the plant itself is concerned.

Mr. ENGLANDER. Right.

Mr. BATES. Do I understand, as far as the plant is concerned, there is really not much difference between this and the several other loca

tions?

Mr. ENGLANDER. As far as the storage areas are concerned, there is no difference.

Mr. BATES. I presume that is also true in the Navy and the Air Force. We have seen it in the Army with the Nike sites, where we have had a couple of little incidents that developed, which were rather serious.

As far as outloading is concerned, Mr. Higgins, in your statement you indicated that the outloading facilities would not be used except in the case of a national emergency today?

Secretary HIGGINS. That is correct, Mr. Bates.

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Mr. Chairman, could I ask a question?
The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Cunningham.

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Mr. Secretary, do you at these installations acquire land belonging to the Government at a distance out from the depot so that people will not move in and build a community and build up a hazard of their own?

Secretary HIGGINS. That is correct, sir.

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. How far out do you purchase land to protect it? Mr. HERCZOGH. Generally about 1 mile, sir.

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. One mile only?

Mr. HERCZOGH. Yes.

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Well, how does it happen that you are within 10 miles in so many of those? Are the people not moved in?

Mr. HERCZOGH. Sir, the way those igloo areas are laid out, if one igloo should detonate, it will not set off any other storage igloo within the depot. The possibility of two igloos going off is remote. Therefore, the distance purchased is only that required to provide the safety factor from the closest igloo depot to the depot boundaryMr. KELLEHER. Closest igloo.

Mr. HERCZOGH. Yes, the closest igloo to the depot boundary.

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Is that the situation you have at San Jacinto? Mr. HERCZOGH. Yes, sir. If one igloo goes up, the chances of another going off is remote.

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. What is the hazard, then, at San Jacinto?

Mr. HERCZOGH. At the depot itself there is none, sir, to the best of my knowledge. It is safely laid out like any other military ammunition facility.

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Let me ask this question. Any greater hazard than there would be at Point-Aux-Pins if it were moved out there? Mr. HERCZOGH. No, sir. As far as the depot goes, it would be laid out on the same criteria. The pier would have a little more additional land to it.

The CHAIRMAN. May I ask this, Mr. Cunningham:

What is the total acreage at San Jacinto?

Mr. ENGLANDER. 5,000 acres, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. 5,000 acres. Now, members of the committeeMr. CUNNINGHAM. What is the acreage at Port-Aux-Pins? What do you plan?

Mr. ENGLANDER. That would be over 5,000.

The CHAIRMAN. How many?

Mr. HERCZOGH. That would be approximately 17,000 acres?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Wouldn't it build up around that in a few years and there would be a city or town, so that there would be the same hazard as you have at San Jacinto?

Secretary HIGGINS. I have not agreed that a hazard exists. Our latest and most modern ammunition outloading terminal is at Sunny Point, N. C. I have been there. This is as modern as tomorrow's sunrise.

The CHAIRMAN. Well

Mr. BROOKS. Mr. Secretary, I notice

Mr. HUDDLESTON. Let the witness answer it.

Secretary HIGGINS. I wanted to say that the payrolls at Sunny Point, N. Č., where we are just 90 miles from nowhere, the first time I went there I went to dedicate the affair and I saw evidence of the population around ther springing up, and now we are getting communities around there. These payrolls are always going to attract people.

The CHAIRMAN. No cities being built around it, though?
Secretary HIGGINS. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. And you only have 240 or 270 people employed. That is all the people that is employed there. There is no large personnel associated with any of these depots anywhere.

Mr. BROOKS. Mr. Secretary, too, I notice there Mr. Thomas estimates that that land should bring from $172 million to $20 million. Now, your estimate is not quite that much, is it?

Secretary HIGGINS. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, members of he committee

Mr. GAVIN. May I ask a question

Mr. PRICE. Mr. Chairman.

How far is this place from Mobile, this new point where it is to be located?

Mr. ENGLANDER. About 22 miles.

Mr. PRICE. Which direction is Mobile, toward this location?

Mr. HERCZOGH. This point is right on the gulf, sir, and it is about 20 or 25 miles southwest from Mobile.

Mr. PRICE. How far away were you from Houston, when the base was built there originally?

Mr. ENGLANDER. Fifteen miles.

The CHAIRMAN. I think this

Mr. GAVIN. How long as the depot been there?

May I ask a question?

Mr. ENGLANDER. Since 1942. Construction was started in 1941.

Mr. GAVIN. How much land do you own around your outside, where you are fenced in, in the complete surrounding?

Mr. ENGLANDER. Well, the

Mr. GAVIN. How far is it? It is a mile or a mile and a half?

Mr. ENGLANDER. It is about-anywhere from 2,000 to 4,000 feet from any of the places

Mr. GAVIN. Installations?

Mr. ENGLANDER. Where the ammunition is stored to the boundary fence.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, members of the committee, let's let this matter lie on the table for the time being and we will proceed:

Now, I get from you, Mr. Secretary, that if Congress decides that the proper thing to do-you need $44 million to reestablish it at some other place.

Secretary HIGGINS. If this is ready, yes, sir, ready for us, why, we will be good neighbors

The CHAIRMAN. And the language is such that you will have ample time to build the other establishment before you abandon this one? Secretary HIGGINS. Oh, it must be ready for us to move into; yes,

sir.

The CHAIRMAN. That is right.

Secretary HIGGINS. And it is going to establish a national precedent. Mr. HARDY. I have just one question, Mr. Chairman.

Do the safety factors at San Jacinto conform in all respects now to the safety factors which the Army has always considered appropriate?

Mr. HERCZOGH. May I answer that?

Secretary HIGGINS. Yes.

Mr. HERCZOGH. As far as the depot goes; yes, sir.

Mr. HARDY. Well, in what respect do they not meet requirements? Mr. HERCZOGH. I am referring to the pier area. They do not meet present-day safety criteria. That is the outloading area of the facility. Mr. HARDY. The outloading pier does not meet the safety requirement?

Mr. HERCZOGH. Yes, sir.

Mr. HARDY. Whose responsibility is that? Is the Army responsible for that, or did the port build up around it?

Mr. ENGLANDER. I will answer that. The port built up around it, sir.

Mr. HARDY. The Army didn't take the adequate precautions to protect itself against it being built up? The Army didn't buy up all the land, in other words?

Mr. ENGLANDER. We would have to admit that, sir.

Mr. HARDY. What is to prevent a similar situation from arising wherever else you might locate?

Secretary HIGGINS. Well, I would like to offer this, Congressman Hardy. It has been developed here that insofar as the outloading part of San Jacinto is concerned, you could find some fault with it. But this pier is only going to be used in a war, and if we get into a war and need to outload through New Orleans or Hoboken, or elsewhere

Mr. HARDY. The city of New York?
Secretary HIGGINS. We will do it.
Mr. HARDY. You will do it?

Secretary HIGGINS. Yes, sir. We are only going to do this in war, and then all the chips are down and we will do what we need to do. Mr. HARDY. As far as you are concerned, it meets all the safety requirements that anybody could think of as being necessary? Secretary HIGGINS. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much, Mr. Secretary.
Mr. KITCHIN. One question. I asked in writing there.

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