Mr. HARDY. Mr. Chairman, that is the key to my problem on this business. I do not think we are going to get anywhere on it. But I just am not at all sure that these surveys are proper. I am not so sure that they are based on anything but a determination to go ahead and get something to support the figure that somebody has already worked out. I do not know what you have done.

This business of trying to guess at inadequacy of quarters in the community, or, certainly, to gain the information based on the kind of a survey that Mr. Kitchin referred to, makes every single one of your estimates and surveys suspect, in my judgment.

Mr. KILDAY. I think all we can do is receive the information which is available from the Department and act on each project individually. At this point

Mr. HARDY. Then, Mr. Chairman, I still insist that somebody ought to determine what the criteria are. I am not questioning that they have come up with some sort of support for these figures. But the criteria that they have used to arrive at these figures is the thing that bothers me.

I have been fooling with this thing now for about 10 years. And I think I know a little something about what the military does in this field. And I am not at all satisfied with the kind of surveys you make or the kind of reports that you use to support the information you give to the committee.

Mr. Chairman, unless some subcommittee of this committee will get into this thing and make a determination with respect to these figures, then I am going to ask the Government Operations Committee to do it.

The CHAIRMAN. At this point, I want to state that I have not had the opportunity to go over these line items, as has the chairman, with Mr. Kelleher. So I am going to have to depend on Mr. Kelleher to pick those line items that we are to inquire into.

Mr. KELLEHER. All right, sir.

Mr. KILDAY. And any questions thereto. So, take up the next one. Mr. KELLEHER. That next one will be on line 6, Fort Lee, Va.; 150 of these units have been approved, out of the 435.

Mr. KILDAY. You can go ahead with your justification, Colonel. Colonel SMYBOL. Sir, at Fort Lee, we have a total requirement of 3,546 units; 781 are the lower 3 grades. We have our current assets consist of 110 units of public housing, 300 Wherry, 500 existing Capeharts that are nearing completion, plus a proposed total of 435 Capeharts that we count as assets. The 150 have been previously approved, as Mr. Kelleher mentioned. Then we have 317 community support, for a total of 1,662 units.

Mr. KILDAY. Mr. Kelleher, do you want to develop anything on this project?

Mr. KELLEHER. No, sir; I might point out if these units are granted, they will have 49 percent of their basic requirements at the installation.

Mr. KILDAY. Are there any other questions with reference to this project?

Mr. HARDY. I would like to ask him just one question. Have you made a survey of the availability in the community of additional housing?

Colonel SYMBOL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HARDY. How many have you determined are living in substandard houses in the community?

Colonel SYMBOL. 1,318 are living in substandard housing, 146 paying excess rent, and 2 live an excess distance.

Mr. KILDAY. Anything further?

Mr. KITCHIN. Mr. Chairman?

Mr. KILDAY. Yes.

Mr. KITCHIN. Will the gentleman yield at this point?
Mr. KILDAY. Mr. Kitchin.

Mr. KITCHIN. I think this is the one place that we can get answers to the questions at least that concern me. I know you cannot do this in generalities, Colonel, but how do you declare a house substandard? What is the policy?

Colonel SYMBOL. The policy is published by the Department of Defense, and we implement the Department of Defense policy, sir, and they described what an inadequate house is. I can, if you want me, sir, to read

Mr. KITCHIN. To make it a little bit more brief, Colonel, in discussing this thing with you yesterday, you emphasized to me that in actuality the inspection down in the Bragg area disclosed that some of these houses even had cabinets in the kitchen that you could not lay a plate flat in. Some of the houses had closets that you had to hange a coat hanger catercornered to get a coat in.

Now does that in itself declare a house substandard?

Colonel SYMBOL. No, sir.

Mr. KITCHIN. Now how many of those items do you have to find before a house is substandard?

Colonel SYMBOL. Sir, we do not take any one, any two, or any three and declare it substandard. We analyzed each questionnaire on its own merits and then we spot checked about 25 percent of them. Mr. KITCHIN. I still do not get it.

Mr. KILDAY. If the standards fixed by the Department of Defense have not been put in the record, I think they should be.

Mr. KELLEHER. All right, sir.

Colonel SYMBOL. All right.

Mr. KILDAY. Are they very long?

Colonel SYMBOL. No, sir; we can get that and supply it for the record.

Mr. KILDAY. Without objection, they will be included in the record. Implementing Department of Defense Directives, the following is an extract from Department of the Army Circular 210-5, 28 March 1958, defining substandard or inadequate family housing units for use as private quarters:

"5. Community support

"a. The Department of the Army policy is to utilize community support to the maximum extent possible to fill family housing requirements. However, a family unit may be considered substandard or inadequate for use as private quarters in the surrounding community for one or more of the following reasons: "(1) The dwelling lacks individual kitchen or inside bathroom facilities. "(2) The dwelling is not provided with essential cooking, refrigeration, heating, ventilation, or lighting facilities.

"(3) The dwelling is not of suitable construction, design, and general livability. "(a) Examples of construction considered not suitable would be structures with unfinished exterior wall surfaces such as exposed sheating, lumber, or wallboard; or with interior surfaces unlined, exposing structural framing to view; structures with unfinished floors, structures that are not reasonably weathertight or watertight; and structures no structurally safe.

"(b) Examples of dwellings considered no suitable with respect to design and general livability would be structures requiring direct access from the living room into the bathroom, or access to bedrooms through other bedrooms, or access from the main entrance to the living-dining area through the kitchen or a bedroom; structures having inadequate light, heat and ventilation, in terms of building code requirements normally applicable in the locality; and structures with inadequate floor area or a total floor area inappropriately distributed, resulting in excessive areas in passageways, bedrooms, or utility spaces as compared to the living and dining areas.

"(4) The location of the dwelling is not suitable for residence of an assignee. Examples of locations considered not suitable would be locations adjacent to sewage disposal plants, waste dumps, industrial exhaust or swampy stagnant tracts presenting obnoxious odors; locations in proximity to railroad, or heavy industrial shop buildings creating excessive noise, dust, or hazard to an occupant; and locations for which daily commuting presents extreme inconvenience and difficulties to an occupant with respect to his duties.

"(5) The cost of the rent-plus-utilities for the unit exceeds the rental allowance of the prospective occupant.

"(6) The commuting range for the unit exceeds a reasonable commuting range. A reasonable commuting range is normally defined as 30 minutes travel time one way. However, for personnel at AA tactical sites, the maximum commuting range may be reduced to 10 minutes one way travel time.

"b. The criteria cited above are for general guidance only, and may be modified to meet local conditions. However, the adequacy or inadequacy of community support must be made with extreme care and must be able to withstand the closest scrutiny.

"c. In considering the family housing requirements, appropriate recognition and consideration should be given to potential increases in community support; desires of individuals who, by choice, do not move their families with them to military posts; and the fact that some individuals, by desire or circumstance, are living and will continue to live in private quarters that do not meet the standards specified above."

Mr. HARDY. Now, Mr. Chairman, one other thought in connection with this determination. Other than those that are inspected, the determination is made from the information given on the questionnaire furnished by the wife of the serviceman; is that right?

Colonel SYMBOL. I did not hear that, Mr. Hardy.

Mr. HARDY. I say

Mr. KILDAY. Let us have order, please.

Mr. HARDY. I say except for the number that are inspected, the determination is based on the information in the questionnaire which is filled in by the wife of a serviceman; is that right?

Colonel SYMBOL. That questionnaire is analyzed in the headquarters

Mr. HARDY. I am not concerned with the analyzing of it. You all can analyze this stuff. It is just like coordinating and implementing. Mr. KILDAY. Unless an amendment is offered, the project is approved.

Mr. HARDY. I am not going to offer any amendment to any of them, Mr. Chairman. I am going to quit now because we are going to get them all like this.

Mr. KILDAY. What is the next project, Mr. Kelleher?

Mr. KELLEHER. Line 13, Mr. Chairman, 73 units have been approved at Fort Totten, of the total of 130.

Mr. KITCHIN. Line what?

Mr. KELLEHER. Line 13, sir.

Mr. BRAY. What page is that?

Mr. KELLEHER. That is page 9; 72 of the 130 have been approved previously.

Colonel SYMBOL. Sir, at this station we have a total requirement of 382 units, which includes 12 units for the lower 3 grades. We have 74 public quarters, no Wherry, no existing Capehart, and we count as an asset this 130, plus 44 community support. If this project is approved, we will have our-post housing up to about 55, period. Then we have 9 sets of substandard housing that we hope to dispose of. Mr. KILDAY. Any questions, Mr. Kelleher?

Mr. KELLEHER. No, sir; I have none.

Mr. KILDAY. Any questions from the committee? (No response.) If not, it will be approved. Proceed to the next item.

Mr. KELLEHER. Item, line 17, Mr. Chairman, Fort Rucker. None have been approved.

Mr. KILDAY. Colonel.

Colonel SYMBOL. At this station we have a requirement of 3,074 units, of which 292; it included the 292 for enlisted men not authorized housing.

Our assets at this station are 31 public quarters, no Wherry housing, and we have 600 Capeharts that are under construction and nearing completion. This project is 400 units, which we are including as an asset, plus 149 community support, for a total of 1,180 units. We have on the base 364 substandard sets of quarters that we would like to dispose of. If this 400 unit project is approved, Mr. Chairman, we will have 37 per cent of our assets on base.

Mr. KILDAY. Any questions, Mr. Kelleher?

Mr. KELLEHER. None, sir.

Mr. KILDAY. From members of the committee?
Mr. BRAY. Mr. Chairman?

Mr. KILDAY. Mr. Bray?

Mr. BRAY. I do not want to interpose any objection to this, but it is something I believe the military should give care to. I was talking to a friend of mine just casually a few months ago from the immediate neighborhood of Fort Rucker, a man who was a fellow soldier in World War II. He said that it was apparent-he has no property to rent there. He is not involved, although he is a well-known business man in that community. And he did not ask me to say this or to do anything about it. But he says it is apparent they are going to have a surplus of housing soon if they extend beyond what was then programed.

The man is well known to have a pretty capable judgment on matters of that kind.

They are very appreciate of what is there, and I think the average person does not want to object and neither does he object. But it can be very embarrassing if you start over building at some of these bases and some of these places.

Colonel SYMBOL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BRAY. The things he told me I am very much inclined to believe, that if you go over the total amount here you are going to have a surplus.

Mr. KILDAY. Anything further? If not, the project

Mr. HARDY. Mr. Chairman?

Mr. KILDAY. Mr. Hardy?

Mr. HARDY. One question. He shows community support of 149. How many have you living substandard in the community? Colonel SYMBOL. In the community, sir?

Mr. BRAY. That is right.

Colonel SYMBOL. We have 324 substandard, 134 that are paying excess costs and 76 excess distance that they have to travel.

Mr. BRAY. And these substandard housing that are on the base were built under the Lanham Act?

Colonel SYMBOL. Sir, I have inspected the housing at this station and they are principally title III houses and trailers. They are about 500 to 600 square feet each-just shell-type houses.

Mr. BRAY. That is all right. That is why I asked you what they were. Under the Lanham Act, most of them--a good many of them are trailers.

Colonel SYMBOL. Sir, if I remember correctly, the ones that I saw down there were principally trailers and these title III houses. Mr. BRAY. O. K. Are they being used at the present time? Colonel SYMBOL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BRAY. All of them?

Colonel SYMBOL. Yes.

Mr. BRAY. And how much are they being charged for those? Colonel SYMBOL. The 1-bedroom, the 500-square foot one, is about $45 a month, plus utilities.

Mr. HARDY. You are not taking the quarters allowance for them? Mr. KELLEHER. Those are rentals.

Colonel SYMBOL. Sir, they were until we implemented the legislation regarding substandard houses of last year. That permitted us to charge rent.

Mr. BRAY. Then, if you get these new houses, you will get rid of these houses?

Colonel SYMBFL. That is our intentions; yes, sir.

Mr. HARDY. That is a promise.

Mr. KELLEHER. They must under the law, in 2 years, sir.

Colonel SYMBOL. We must under the law.

Mr. KILDAY. Mr. Burns?

Mr. BURNS. Colonel, just one question. On your community support, what would be the difference here between 149 and 160? What would bring that about?

Colonel SYMBOL. One hundred forty-nine

Mr. BURNS. You show the 149 on the basic and you show 160 on the total.

Mr. KELLBHER. That is the lower four grades.

Mr. BURNS. Wouldn't community support be the same?

Colonel SYMBOL. It is the lower four grades, Mr. Burns.

Mr. BURNS. Lower four grades included in community support. Colonel SYMBOL. When I gave the 149 I am talking about people authorized housing under permanent legislation.

Mr. LANKFORD. But the quarters are there in the community whether the people are authorized to use them or not. So why the difference between 149 and 160? I am reading from this sheet here?

Colonel SYMBOL. Oh, sir; that 160 does include the lower 3 grades. Mr. LANKFORD. Yes; but the quarters are still there, whether the lower three grades live in them or the commanding general lives in them.

Colonel SYMBOL. Yes, sir; but in computing our net requirements for construction, we ignore those lower three grades. But we did