Mr. HARDY. Mr. Chairman, if it does, then I do not understand his yardstick or how it applies it either.

The CHAIRMAN. Go over it again.

Mr. HARDY. I do not want him to go over what he said a while ago. I would like to know how he did in this case, by using the stuff that he just told us there in such pretty language.

Colonel SYMBOL. I would like to do that again, sir, to use exact figures.

Mr. HARDY. How did you arrive at this figure of 1,928, Colonel? I think if you just tell us that, based on the generalized story that you gave us, maybe I can get it through my thick head.

Colonel SYMBOL. Well, sir, for officers and upper three graders who are authorized housing under permanent legislation—we have 1,276. Mr. HARDY. How did you get that figure?

Colonel SYMBOL, Sir?

Mr. HARDY. How did you get that figure?

Colonel SYMBOL. Well, we counted them by actual survey.

Mr. HARDY. That is what you have in the 7,212?

Colonel SYMBOL. Yes, sir. We know how many people are stationed out there, sir.

Mr. KITCHIN. Will the gentleman yield at that point? That 7,212 officers is based on the current strength?

Colonel SYMBOL. No; that is based on the long range.

Mr. KITCHIN. How do you arrive at that on the long range when it is a reduction of some 2,000 from the long range to the current strength?

Colonel SYMBOL. We take the T O and E's. We have the tables of organization. We have units assigned to White Sands on a longrange basis. We have a book published that actually enumerates the units that are stationed there, and it gives the number of officers and enlisted men. All we do is add them up.

Mr. HARDY. Well, maybe I can try it one other way. You come up with a figure of 1,928 as your total requirement?

Colonel SYMBOL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HARDY. Can you put your fingers on those 1,928 families? Colonel SYMBOL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HARDY. Well now, how come there are not more than that? Colonel SYMBOL. Sir, at a missile range such as this there are many transients that come in with their missiles and rockets and we do not provide quarters for them. This is only for the permanent people that will be there.

Mr. HARDY. Mr. Chairman, we will be here a long time getting this thing boiled down.

The CHAIRMAN. I move that White Sands Proving Ground, the 200 units, be approved.

Mr. HARDY. And I vote no because of inadequate information. Mr. GAVIN. I vote aye.

The CHAIRMAN. Without objection

Mr. HARDY. Mr. Chairman, I am going to have to object. You can vote me down if you want to.

The CHAIRMAN. All right.

Mr. HARDY. The only reason I am doing it is because we do not have enough information about it. I think, of course, we ought to

give good quarters and in reasonable quantity. But I am not satisfied with the information as presented either as to requirements or as to the existing facilities that are available on base, and in the community.

Mr. RIVERS. Mr. Chairman, if we are going to have this on every project

Mr. HARDY. You are going to have it if I am permitted to say anything.

Mr. RIVERS. We just as well dismiss all these Navy witnesses. It will just tie them up all day.

The CHAIRMAN. We will get along.

Colonel SYMBOL. Mr. Chairman, the Army does have firm plans for the long range, and we have units asigned there by type. For instance, we have a signal agency. We have a signal battalion. Then we have an ASA, an Army Security Agency detachment. Then we have a station complement. Then we have the provost marshal. Then we have the medical setup and the dental. Then we have the 14th Ordnance Battalion. We have those units and those units have a TO and E which indicate the number of officers and enlisted. All we do is add those up.

Mr. HARDY. Mr. Chairman, let me make this one more statement: I am just as interested in getting adequate housing on these bases as anybody else is, but I do not believe your figures, Colonel, and you have not given me any basis to believe them. Until I get some basis to understand how you arrive on a reasonable basis at, No. 1, your requirement and how you arrive on a reasonable basis as your facilities that are available, including community support-until I get them I am going to object to every single one of them.

Colonel SYMBOL. Mr. Hardy

The CHAIRMAN. I think this, Mr. Hardy: There is no community support at all.

Mr. HARDY. All right. Mr. Chairman, he has not even told me how he arrived at his requirement.

The CHAIRMAN. Tell us how you arrived at your requirement of 275.

Colonel SYMBOL. Mr. Hardy, there are over 7,000 assigned personnel currently there. We ignore that 7,000 figure because that is the current strength. We take the long range, which is over 5,000 personnel. The Department of the Army has officially assigned certain units to White Sands on the long-range basis. We actually add all the officers and the NCO's that are assigned to these units and that gives us the long range strength, Mr. Hardy.

Then we conduct the survey as a doublecheck against it to make sure that under no condition will it exceed what that literally adds up to.

Mr. HARDY. Is it your testimony that you have conducted a survey and that there are actually now 1,928 in that permanent group who are entitled under the law to quarters?

Colonel SYMBOL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HARDY. That is as a result of an actual setup?

Colonel SYMBOL. Well, it is adding up the number of officers and enlisted men assigned to the units on a long-range basis, because our current far exceeds the long range, Mr. Hardy.

The people living there today far exceed

Mr. HARDY. Oh, it is a tabulation then? Then it is not an actual count?

Colonel SYMBOL. Well, it is a tabulation.

Mr. HARDY. It is a computation?

Colonel SYMBOL. It is a tabulation.

Mr. HARDY. It is computed?

Colonel SYMBOL. Yes, sir.

Mr. KILDAY. Colonel, the nearest town is Las Cruces?

Colonel SYMBOL. Yes, sir.

Mr. KILDAY. That is 30 miles?

Colonel SYMBOL. Yes, sir.

Mr. KILDAY. How far is El Paso?

Colonel SYMBOL. Sir, I have that here. Fifty miles, sir.

Mr. KILDAY. El Paso-I mean a good many of these people actualy live in El Paso, do they not?

Colonel SYMBOL. Yes; they do, sir.

Mr. KILDAY. So they have to travel 100 miles a day to and from work? It is quite an isolated base?

Colonel SYMBOL. Yes, sir. I have inspected this post, personally, Mr. Chairman. There are no housing accommodations around there. Many of the people do commute the 30 and 50 miles each way every day.

Mr. HARDY. It is a long way, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. I think, members of the committee, in view of the situation, where it is located, we are clearly warranted in doing it. Mr. HARDY. Mr. Chairman, they certainly ought to have housing, and the only complaint I have is I want to know how he arrived at them and how he arrived at the quantity available.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, the witness gave that information.

Mr. HARDY. All right.

The CHAIRMAN. Whether you agree with him or not, he gave it from his viewpoint.

Without objection, this item is approved, 275 units at White Sand Proving Ground, N. Mex.

Now, the next one is at Fort Monmouth. Is that not it?
Mr. KELLEHER. That is correct, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. 130 units in New Jersey.

Colonel SYMBOL. Mr. Chairman, at this station we have a requirement 2,404 units, 255 of which are the lower grade enlisted men not authorized housing. We have assets, a total of 1,484, and in those assets we have included this 130 units that we are attempting to get approval today for, sir.

Mr. HARDY. What was the total figure, Colonel?

Colonel SYMBOL. 1,484.

Mr. LANKFORD. Colonel, you said you had requirements for 1,484? Colonel SYMBOL. 2,404, sir.

Mr. LANKFORD. Two thousand, of which 255 were the lower enlisted grades who are not entitled to housing?

Colonel SYMBOL. That is correct, sir.

Mr. LANKFORD. Are the 255 counted in this 2,000?

Colonel SYMBOL. I merely give the total requirement, sir, to indicate that we do have lower grade enlisted men that are not author

20066-58-No. 86- -17

ized housing but have to live someplace, and, usually, they are out in the community.

Mr. LANKFORD. Well-never mind.

Mr. BURNS. Will the gentleman yield?

Mr. LANKFORD. I yield.

Mr. BURNS. Is the difference between your basic and your total those who are actually not entitled to quarters?

Colonel SYMBOL. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Without objection

Mr. HARDY. Let me ask one question.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. HARDY. Now, you give a total available figure of 1,484; is that right?

Colonel SYMBOL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HARDY. Now, that includes this 130 that you have added here? Colonel SYMBOL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HARDY. How many of your people are living in community support now?

Colonel SYMBOL. We have 304 that we consider are living in adequate quarters. I mean they are adequate.

Mr. KELLEHER. Two words.

Colonel SYMBOL. Then we have one that is living in a substandard house. We have 475 that are paying excess rents, because this is a resort community, and we have 17 that are living an excess distance. Mr. HARDY. Of this 475 that are paying excess rent, how many of them are of a rank above captain; that is, captain or above?

Colonel SYMBOL. Sir, I have the figure not quite that way, Mr. Hardy. It is 124 officers and 351 noncommissioned officers. So, they are principally noncommissioned officers, sir.

Mr. HARDY. Those quarters would be adequate, except that the rents are too high?

Colonel SYMBOL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HARDY. Do you know how many of them are living in those high-rent places because of personal choice?

Colonel SYMBOL. These are not by choice, Mr. Hardy.

Mr. HARDY. Do you know that, Colonel?

Colonel SYMBOL. Well, yes, sir.

Mr. HARDY. Did Mr. Kitchin tell you about a case that went in this Fort Bragg thing, where a colonel stated that he could not obtain adequate quarters and had to go to Durham to get them?

Colonel SYMBOL. I am not familiar with that particular case, sir. Mr. HARDY. All right. That is my information; that it was so stated, and it developed the reason he went to Durham to get quarters was because his wife worked in Durham and he chose to be in Durham, but, nevertheless, the quarters were shown-as being unable to obtain adequate quarters in the Fort Bragg community.

Colonel SYMBOL. No, sir.

Mr. HARDY. I want to find out how many of these people may be renting, deliberately renting higher priced quarters because it is something that they want.

Colonel SYMBOL. Mr. Hardy, that is why we subtract 10 percent from our requirement; to take care of those type people.

Mr. HARDY. I thought you subtracted the 10 percent because you had some bachelors.

Colonel SYMBOL. No, sir. The bachelors do not enter into this, Mr. Hardy.

Mr. HARDY. Well, your bachelors enter into your total computation as to eligibility.

Colonel SYMBOL. No, sir; we do not include the bachelor officers in computing requirements for family housing.

Mr. HARDY. That is, if you make an actual count.
Colonel SYMBOL. Well, regardless-

Mr. HARDY. When you make a computation based on your organization charts, you always include the bachelors?

Colonel SYMBOL. That is why we take the 10 percent.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, members of the committee, I think the facts again warrant favorable consideration of this 130 units. Without objection, Fort Monmouth is approved.

Now, I am going to have to ask Mr. Kilday to take charge of the hearings. I want to say this, members of the committee. Tomorrow there will not be a session of the committee, as Representatives of the committee are required to participate in the ceremonies in the Capitol. They will meet in the House Chamber at 9:30. We will not have a session at all tomorrow, but I will ask Mr. Kilday to hold a session Thursday morning. Then we will adjourn until Monday morning. I will have to go to the Rules Committee now, and it is not possible for me to be here Thursday morning.

Mr. RIVERS. Mr. Chairman

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Kilday, will you take charge and take up each one of these items right now?

Mr. RIVERS. Mr. Chairman, are we going to have the Navy today, Mr. Chairman?

The CHAIRMAN. When we get through with this, then the Navy will be next.

Colonel SYMBOL. Mr. Chairman, may I make one more statement, in answer to Mr. Hardy's question?

Mr. KILDAY (presiding). Yes, Colonel.

Colonel SYMBOL. Sir, we have 14 percent that are bachelors, and 84 percent are the married ones. So we do not

Mr. HARDY. Now you are using that as a flat percentage? That is not based on an actual determination, is it, Colonel?

Colonel SYMBOL. Mr. Hardy, as I say, in the absence of experience factors, we use the percentage, but we do conduct these yearly surveys to determine the exact requirements, sir.

Mr. HARDY. I was going to let this thing ride, but, as long as you opened this thing up, who has made a survey of available community support

Mr. KILDAY. Mr. Harvey. Go ahead.

Mr. HARDY. We has made a survey of available community support to determine whether there are rental units available within the quarters allowance range?

Colonel SYMBOL. Mr. Hardy, the station commander has made that, based on criteria established by the Department of Defense and implemented by the Army.