The CHAIRMAN. That was 2 years ago? Colonel SYMBOL. Yes, sir The CHAIRMAN. Now, this 367 units is a part of the 2,000 that were originally approved by the subcommittee and the full committee? Colonel SYMBOL. That is correct, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Now, tell us about the 2,000 units. How many of the 2,000 units have been built? Colonel SYMBOL. Sir, there are 1,500 that are under contract, some of them built and occupied. The CHAIRMAN. Of the original 2,000? Colonel SYMBOL. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. And then, on account of the law saying it must be a line item, that is the reason it is appearing in this bill today? Colonel SYMBOL. That is correct, sir, because The CHAIRMAN. If it were not for that requirement of the law, you would continue to build until you had constructed the 2,000 units! Colonel SYMBOL. That is correct, sir. The CHAIRMAN. And this 367 units is a part and parcel of the original 2,000 units? Colonel SYMBOL. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. That was my recollection. Thank you very much in regard to that. Now, I think we had better have some information in regard to each one of these. Mr. KITCHIN. Mr. Chairman, before we leave Fort Bragg, may I have an opportunity to make a statement? The CHAIRMAN. Yes, sir. Mr. KITCHIN. At the outset, in order to properly bottom my questions, Colonel, I want to have the record clearly show that I am in favor of the 367 units being built at Fort Bragg. I am not in opposition to those units. I am not here defending the Chamber of Commerce of Fayetteville or any other private interest. My sole interest in this matter is the method and manner in which the Army and all other services obtain information upon which they declare certain housing substandard. As you recall yesterday, I sent over to you a copy of this questionnaire which, apparently, was sent out or given out in the pay lines down at Fort Bragg to the various people that were paid down there; that is my information. Now, I am very happy that you have Mr. Harvey here this morning. I understand he was head of the team that went down and investigated this housing proposition in the vicinity of Fort Bragg. To make myself perfectly clear again, my particular constituents in the Eighth Congressional District of North Carolina are very insistent that I make an effort to expedite the construction of the 367 units in Fort Bragg. Fort Bragg is not in my congressional district. So, therefore, from a selfish political standpoint, I have no interest in the chamber of commerce position as it is reflected by those who visited here and represent that great city in North Carolina. I have before me, however-and you have a copy of it-a questionnaire that was apparently sent out from the post at Fort Bragg to a various number of personnel there, which I would like to ask a question about in a moment, but to give a little bit of foundation about this particular questionnaire I would like to point out-and if this information is wrong, I would like to be corrected-that in 1956 the Department of the Army survey showed the number of married personnel at Fort Bragg requiring housing of this nature to be 15,913. The 1958 survey-and I am assuming this survey was made in conjunction with Mr. Harvey's team-showed that the family housing requirement was 11,515, or a reduction of 4,398 family housing requirements in the area, in Bragg, Now, the 1956 Department of Army survey showed the number of married personel living in adequate quarters off the post to be 6,264. However, the 1958 survey showed only 1,761 married personnel living in adequate quarters, therefore declaring that the only adequate community support had been reduced by 4,503. Now, the problem that presents itself to me is, first, after the reduction of some 4,300 requirements on the post, there was apparently declared in 1956, 6,264 adequate well, housing for 6,264 people in the Fort Bragg vicinity, which were living in standard or adequate housing. But within the 2-year period-I do not know where they went or whether it is the same houses that they are living in or anything else of that nature, but the 1958 survey showed there were only 1,761 living in adequate housing or standard housing in the town of Fort Bragg. Now that, in itself, shows that the reduction in adequate community support was some 200 more than the reduction in the housing requirements for the post, for Fort Bragg. Now, I would like to inquire-and I am glad Mr. Harvey is here; maybe he can straighten us out--I would like to inquire as to whether or not this questionnaire that was sent out which, in my opinion, is certainly-using the word "adequate" again-not adequate to obtain true and accurate statistical information-whether or not the reduction from some 6,200 to 1,700 standard housing in the vicinity of Fort Bragg was based upon the results obtained from this questionnaire or whether it was based upon the results of an actual inspection of the units by Mr. Harvey's team. Colonel SYMBOL. Sir Mr. KITCHIN. Can you answer that? Colonel SYMBOL. First, I have been here-this is my fourth year here, Mr. Kitchin, and I do not recall the 6,000 figure. I do not remember it. To answer your question specifically, the answer is "no." This 367unit project was developed by the command, approved by the Department of Army and the Department of Defense last fall. We submitted our fiscal year 1959 public works bill, which included this project, to the Department of Defense in November-November 29 of last year. This questionnaire that you have, sir, is a brandnew questionnaire recently developed by the post and they are using it at the moment. We certainly believe that a questionnaire is required. The post, in utilizing that questionnaire in each instance, will evaluate each questionnaire. They will not accept the face value of those figures. They will take each one and evaluate it. In addition, they will do with that questionnaire as they have done in the past-set up special teams to go out and look over these houses, look them over on the ground. The CHAIRMAN. Right in that connection, then, the committee can understand there will be a personal inspection by a team to determine whether or not a house is substandard. Colonel SYMBOL. Sir, yes, sir-probably not 100 percent, but a large representative sample will be inspected. The CHAIRMAN. One minute, now. We do not want any check inspection. We want an actual, physical inspection of each unit, because there is too much money involved. Why isn't it feasible to have an actual inspection of each premise, instead of relying upon some questionnaire? The questionnaire can be of some value, but an inspection by a team should be far more important and very much better than the questionnaire. Colonel SYMBOL. Mr. Chairman, we will do that in conjunction with the real estate people of the town of Fayetteville. The CHAIRMAN. I am just wondering if we should not put something in the law to require it, it must be certified that as a result of an inspection a house it declared substandard. Now, we cannot do this thing just by questionnaires from people because anyone who occupies a house that they do not own-they would like certain changes to be made in it. That is the reason why it is not sometimes profitable to have rental property, because you have to be changing everything to suit the tenant. But they are good liveable quarters and they are not substandard. Now, there must be a little closer check on what is substandard because it is subject to abuse. I think, Mr. Kelleher, we should try to frame some kind of language to say there must be a physical inspection of each unit to be declared substandard, in addition to whatever questionnaire they send out. In that way we can get a little bit better control over substandard quarters. Mr. RIVERS. Mr. Chairman Mr. KITCHIN. Mr. Chairman, I would like to go back. The CHAIRMAN. Yes. Mr. KITCHIN. I will yield to the gentleman, the chairman of the subcommittee. The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Rivers. Mr. RIVERS. That is one reason, Mr. Chairman, our subcommittee has recommended to you that our subcommittee be given authority to employ seomebody to assist us in doing the same thing you are talking about. This will not do any good unless the committee has a representative go and make spot checks in behalf of the committee. The CHAIRMAN. Well, you see, Mr. Rivers Mr. RIVERS. We have to have some representation somewhere. The CHAIRMAN. You see, Mr. Rivers, the language of the law now, it is not being referred to the committee right now. We may have to get back to refer it to the committee. Mr. RIVERS. We may have to. The CHAIRMAN. Which I think is a more intelligent approach. Mr. RIVERS. Unless and until we get some representaive of this committee who has the time to go out and represent the committee, we cannot ever depend on a 100 percent report. I want that in the record. The CHAIRMAN. It should be done by the Department. Go ahead, Mr. Kitchin. Mr. KITCHIN. I understood you to tell the chairman that you would do this in the future. Colonel SYMBOL. At Fort Bragg, yes, sir. Mr. KITCHIN. At Fort Bragg. Now let me ask you a question: Was there a physical inspection made of the actual housing in the vicinity of Fort Bragg, physically? Colonel SYMBOL. Yes, sir. Mr. KITCHIN. And upon that did you base your requirements when you asked for the authorization of the initial 2,000 housing units! Colonel SYMBOL. Yes; but each house was not inspected, sir. It was a large Mr. KITCHIN. What percentage of houses are inspected when you have a check of this nature? Colonel SYMBOL. About 25 percent, sir. Mr. KITCHIN. About 25 percent? Colonel SYMBOL. That is right. Mr. KITCHIN. And based on that check of 25 percent of the housing, you make your declaration? Colonel SYMBOL. Yes, sir. Mr. KITCHIN. As to how many units are actually substandard housing in the vicinity? Colonel SYMBOL. Yes, sir. Mr. KITCHIN. Mr. Chairman, I think that is a 75-percent possibility of error, when they only see about 25 percent of them. Now, let me ask this question, Colonel: Has this type of questionnaire been used at any other post in any other vicinity to your knowledge, to acquire such information for statistical purposes? Colonel SYMBOL. Mr. Kitchin, the other stations do use questionnaires. This is the most lengthy and detailed one that I have seen. Mr. KITCHIN. Yes. Now, Mr. Chairman, for the record-I am not going to belabor the situation. I would like to leave a copy of this with the Real Estate Subcommittee. I would like to just point out for the benefit of the committee some of the questions that are asked the various housewives of the service personnel. This portion of this questionnaire is titled "To be Completed by Personnel Renting a House in Vicinity of Fort Bragg, Fayetteville, N.C." After the first few questions involving "Do you live in an apartment" or "an individual home" and what is the cost of your rent and the cost of your heat, and so forth, then the questions start: Is your rental of suitable design and construction for general livability and does it present a good appearance? (i) Adequate electric lights. (j) Adequate electrical outlets. (1) Adequate floor space and is it properly distributed. (m) Finished floors, etc, etc. (The full questionnaire is as follows :) EXHIBIT No. 1 FAMILY HOUSING QUESTIONNAIRE (Use pencil if desired) (RCS-ABCGD-OT-18) The purpose of the questions listed below is to provide Department of the Army with sufficient information on which to base planning and justification for construction of family housing at Fort Bragg; also, for the purpose of reporting overall adequate family housing community support in the vicinity of Fort Bragg, N. C. It is desired that this questionnaire be answered to the best of your knowledge. Married personnel living in government quarters on post will complete Section I below only. Inclosure I-For married personnel who live in a house in Fort Bragg-Fayetteville vicinity. Section I-To be completed by home owners only. Section II-To be completed by home renters only. Inclosure II-For married personnel who live in a trailer in Fort BraggFayetteville vicinity. Inclosure III-For married personnel whose families do not live in the vicinity of Fort Bragg-Fayetteville. SECTION I General Information to Be Answered by All Married Male Personnel Yes No. (If yes, a. Live off post and travel to and from work? 1 and 2.) c. Do you live in government family quarters on post? SECTION II To Be Completed by All Married Male Personnel Who Live Off Post In the Fort Bragg-Fayetteville Vicinity 1. Do you live in a (check one) — House (Complete Inclosure I)? Trailer (Complete Inclosure II)? 2. Do you (check one)— Rent the house or trailer you live in? Own or are paying for the house or trailer you live in? 3. Do you live within thirty (30) minutes traveling distance or within a fifteen mile radius of Fort Bragg? Yes - No. 4. How long does it take you to travel to or from work? only). Minutes (one way 5. Approximately how many miles is it from your home to Fort Bragg? Miles (one way only). |