of from 9 to 12 months, and then permitting them to grow for from 2 to 3 or 4 years in the field without irrigation.

The costs after they are set out in the field are very small compared to the costs in the nursery,

The CHAIRMAN. Do you have to cultivate them after they are in the field?

Dr. BRANDES. They need some cultivation, a few times, during the first year or so.

The CHAIRMAN. They do not have to be irrigated after that first year?

Dr. BRANDES. No, sir; they are not irrigated, except when they are in the nursery.

Senator WALLGREN. Does not the Intercontinental Rubber Co. have any trouble in producing that rubber?

Dr. BRANDES. I understand they apparently have had some in getting the processing machinery at Salinas.

Senator WALLGREN. Any difficulty along there they will overcome? Dr. BRANDES. I really could not answer that.

Senator AUSTIN. That is in the national defense, and I do not imagine they will have any trouble with that.

Senator DOWNEY. Mr. Chairman, I am sure they will not.

Senator AUSTIN. The law will take care of that.

Senator WALLGREN. How much is needed? Has anyone discussed that matter at all?

Senator DOWNEY. No; we have not discussed that.

Senator WALLGREN. Is there anyone here who could tell us whether secondary rubber is of any use at all?

Senator DOWNEY. The testimony shows that it would be 90 percent as valuable as the rubber they are getting from trees, 90 percent as valuable as the rubber they are getting from Asia, and they are better able to insure a supply through this method because we are facedand we might as well look the situation in the face--with a desperate situation, because we must all look at the situation with the possible assumption that the Japs may grab control of the Pacific.

Senator WALLGREN. How much of a supply is on hand; do you have any testimony as to that?

Mr. MASON. Roughly, on hand

Senator DowNEY (interposing). Wait a minute.

Mr. Secretary, will you answer that if you care to?

Secretary JONES. 500,000 tons in the country, which is about 1 year's supply.

Senator WALLGREN. Is it possible to get use out of rubber-that is, secondary rubber?

Secretary JONES. Yes; we reuse the rubber, and I expect we could get along pretty well for 2 to 22 years without importing much more rubber. We have 125,000 tons on the water now.

Senator WALLGREN. I suppose the supply is not shut off yet? Secretary JONES. No; we will probably lose some of that 125,000 tons afloat, but we hope not a great deal of it.

Senator WALLGREN. There is no reason why we could not buy a great deal of it, immediately, is there?

Secretary JONES. We have been buying all the rubber available for about 18 months. We have accumulated a stock pile of rubber, start

66613-41- -3

ing July 1940, and that is the reason we have got this large supply now. Senator WALLGREN. Assuming that the source of supply is absolutely shut off, immediately-how soon would we be in need of additional, or new sources of supply?

Secretary JONES. I think we would need to replenish rather rapidly, and if we do not receive supplies right along, we certainly would have to do some heavy rationing of rubber, and I think that can be done.

We could recover from the used rubber more probably than we have done in the past, but I have not felt too uncomfortable_about rubber. Of course I would feel a lot more comfortable if the Pacific were still open.

The question of this guayule rubber was brought to our attention some months ago, and-shall I go on, or just answer your question? Senator DowNEY. Go right ahead, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Proceed, Mr. Jones.

Secretary JONES. I was going beyond the question.

It was brought to our attention, and we investigated the feasibility and the practicability of getting rubber by this method, and we reached the conclusion that it was not quite as favorable as the Doctor has indicated here, as to price.

He has, I think, probably about given our views as to the quantities available and the practicability of it, and I should like to pursue any course that will insure us rubber, and for that reason we are now building some four synthetic plants at a cost, to the R. F. C. and industry combined, of $35,000,000 or $36,000,000. Those plants will produce about 40,000 tons a year, and I think private industry, on its own, including some they have under construction, will probably produce another 35,000 or 40,000 tons per year, so we would have, from synthetic, I should say, a year from now, 80,000 tons annual capacity.

I am expecting that rubber to cost more than 20 cents, in fact I should be surprised if it does not cost 30 cents, possibly more.

When we started buying rubber, we agreed, with the International Rubber Regulations Committee, to be a ready buyer at a price ranging between 18 and 20 cents, delivered New York. We, since conditions got bad and rates got higher, in order to encourage the producers of rubber to produce as much as they could-we changed our price to 182 cents flat, Singapore, we taking the cost, in addition to that, of getting it here.

The rubber is costing us in the neighborhood of 21 cents.

I do not know how much we are going to continue to get, and none of us do, and if it is feasible to get a substantial supply of this rubber, in addition to what we are doing, I think it is well worth considering. Frankly, I have not been convinced that it is a very practical proposition, but that does not mean that it is not. I believe that we can, by the use of synthetic rubber and building additional plants, provide ourselves with sufficient rubber, certainly by using the rubber over and freshening it some.

Senator DowNEY. Mr. Chairman, may I ask a question?

The CHAIRMAN. Certainly.

Senator DOWNEY. Mr. Secretary, when you state that we have 500,000 tons in stock piles, that includes what is afloat? Secretary JONES. No.

Senator DowNEY. That is what is in the United States?

Secretary JONES. We have about 125,000 tons, additional, afloat. Senator DOWNEY. Well, 600,000 tons is about what we have been consuming annually?

Secretary JONES. That is correct, until 1939 or '40 it was more.
Senator Downey. Yes.

Secretary JONES. This year it is running about 45,000 tons a month. Senator DOWNEY. Of course, as I understand the rationing program of O. P. M.-they are already developing it-we are going to materially cut down on civilian use.

Secretary JONES. I think so.

Senator DOWNEY. As a matter of fact, I think they are going to arrange it so that there will be no use except for the necessary commercial use, from now on; that is what I have been told from O. P. M. Now, Mr. Secretary, the testimony was given to us, several months ago, that synthetic rubber produced so far did not permit a program and was not anywhere near the equal of raw, crude rubber for general automotive purposes.

Secretary JONES. It is a little heavy for tires, I am told.

Senator DowNEY. We were told that-I have forgotten-either for cord or fabric, the inside or the outside, I cannot recall, but there was testimony here before the committee, and it was to the effect that while the synthetic rubber was used with other rubber it would be perfectly satisfactory, but when used by itself, it just was not sufficient or satisfactory for automobile tires.

Secretary JONES. I have had some synthetic rubber tires tested by the Bureau of Standards. One tire tested out at about 90 percent, and the other at a little less, maybe 85 percent, efficiency, War Department specifications.

Senator DOWNEY. May I ask, Mr. Secretary, if the whole tire was made of synthetic rubber?

Secretary JONES. I am not certain about that, but that is my understanding. We were using War Department specifications, which are pretty severe specifications, in the test.

Senator DOWNEY. I understand that-maybe I have been misinformed on that-that only a portion of that tire was synthetic rubber. The CHAIRMAN. Right on that point, Mr. Secretary, is it your opinion that the amount of rubber we have in storage in the United States at the present time, that is, the natural-grown rubber, combined with that rubber which is on the way here, and if we succeed in getting it without interference or sinking, if that were utilized with the synthetic rubber, do you not think that we would have enough on hand to last 3 or 4 years?

Secretary JONES. Of course, if we continue to get fair supplies from the outside

The CHAIRMAN. If we do not get any more from outside, that is the question, just what we have on hand and what is on the way herecould that not be utilized, with synthetic rubber, to carry us over for 3 or 4 years?

Secretary JONES. I think when you reduce it to 2 to 3 years, I would say "Yes."

The CHAIRMAN. Now, one question on that point I wanted to ask is: I wonder, Mr. Secretary, if you happen to know the amount of, or

number of pounds of rubber that is created annually, produced annually, in Mexico and Central and South America?

Secretary JONES. I do not know, but it is very little.
The CHAIRMAN. Do you happen to know that, Doctor?
Dr. BRANDES. What was the question, Mr. Chairman?

The CHAIRMAN. I asked, if you knew the number of pounds of rubber created from natural sources, so to speak, in Mexico and Central and South America, annually.

Dr. BRANDES. We can give an approximation.

The CHAIRMAN. What is that?

Dr. BRANDES. Mexico, at present, has an annual production of rubber, from the wild guayule shrub, in Coahuila and the surrounding states, is 5,000 tons per year at present. The factory at Torreon, Mexico, is being doubled and its capacity is being increased, and that annual production will all come to the United States.

The CHAIRMAN. From the utilization of the wild shrub?

Dr. BRANDES. From the utilization of the wild shrub, it will go to approximately 7,000 tons annually; 7,000 tons is regarded as the maximum that can be exploited from the wild shrubs and at the same time provide for some manner of renewal of the plants.

In the Amazon Valley, the amount of wild rubber being exported today is something over 14,000 tons annually, from Hevea, which is Pará rubber, or from the Pará rubber tree.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes; go on.

Dr. BRANDES. That could be increased, with proper planting and financing; perhaps fivefold.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes; but over what period of time would it take? Dr. BRANDES. From 18 months to-perhaps in 18 months or a little more, it could be increased fivefold, with adequate financing.

The CHAIRMAN. To 14,000 tons?

Secretary JONES. That is, you could multiply that figure by five,. within 18 or 20 months?

Dr. BRANDES. Yes.

Secretary JONES. HOW?

Dr. BRANDES. Well, the rubber is there, and it is merely a case of getting it out.

Secretary JONES. You think there is that much growing there now? Dr. BRANDES. Wild rubber, yes; perhaps as much as 20,000 tons a year could be obtained from another rubber tree, which is in addition, it is just known as the castilla rubber tree.

The CHAIRMAN. That prevails in Brazil?

Dr. BRANDES. There is some in Brazil, but most of the rubber is in the countries bordering on the Amazon Basin, that is, Peru, Ecuador,. and Colombia, and in the Central American countries from Panama north to southern Mexico.

I should say that 20,000 tons could be exploited from wild castilla trees, beginning within 18 to 20 months from now.

The CHAIRMAN. In addition to that 15,000 tons coming annually from Brazil?

Dr. BRANDES. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. And Paraguay and Ecuador and southern Venezuela?

Dr. BRANDES. Southern

The CHAIRMAN. Southern Venezuela.

Dr. BRANDES. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. I understand that they are developing and producing some rubber in Costa Rica, and I understand that there has been an extensive experiment conducted there by the Department of Agriculture.

Dr. BRANDES. Yes; we have a long-range program of establishing Hevea rubber in no less than 13 countries in the central and northern part of South America.

The CHAIRMAN. Are we producing anything, commercially?

Dr. BRANDES. We only started about 18 months ago, but we have already planted some eight to twelve million trees in nurseries.

Senator DOWNEY. Mr. Chairman, if I may interpose a minute, I think that we are too optimistic in the United States.

Now, it seems to me that we have to assume, here, to be safe, that rubber is going to be cut off. I think we ought to assume that, and you know, if it is cut off, the problem will fall on us, and we will have to look to Central and South America, and also, if that is done, I think our Government anticipates that in order to keep South America and Central America going, instead of taking all of the rubber from those countries down there, it may be that we will have to supply them with fifty to one hundred thousand tons, instead of continuing to get everything out of them; the problem will be on the other hand, because they need a certain amount of rubber which they have been getting in from the middle areas.

Senator GURNEY. I think that all of the tires in Mexico come from the United States and they probably use 7,000 tons which we make up for them.

May I make one other comment, and that is, when we had our synthetic rubber hearing, we had testimony by someone, I believe from one of the rubber companies, that Germany is making its tires out of reclaimed rubber, and about 65 percent of that was synthetic rubber, so far they are not able to use more than 65 percent synthetic rubber in the making of a tire, but they did use reclaimed rubber and had to put in about 10 percent of raw rubber, and the balance was reclaimed, but that was the percentage they used.

Senator WALLGREN. I might ask, what is the normal content, now? Senator DOWNEY. We have about 600,000 tons in this country now, but the demand will be tremendously increased.

Senator WALLGREN. What do you anticipate production might be from this crop that you are speaking of, after 4 years?

Senator DOWNEY. Within 2 or 3 years, it would be a very substantial thing, anything you want, practically-practically any amount. Senator WALLGREN. About how much per acre?

Senator DOWNEY. About a ton per acre, at the end of 4 years. I might say that possibly the information I have is not correct, and I think we ought to call O. P. M. on it, because I think it is very vital and I understand that O. P. M. states that if our rubber supply is cut off, we have even less than 2 years' supply, even with the rationing, that it will not last 2 years, so if we do not have the Pacific open, or additional sources of rubber supply coming in, we would be in a pretty desperate condition.

Now, that is a fix.

The CHAIRMAN. What figure did O. P. M. give you?