SUMMARY STATUS OF AGENCY IMPLEMENTATION
OF OMB CIRCULAR NO. A-109

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AS OF JUNE 22, 1978

ACTUAL PROGRAM

APPLICATION

SUMMARY STATUS OF AGENCY IMPLEMENTATION

OF OMB CIRCULAR NO. A-109

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Senator CHILES. Our next witness will be Mr. Bert Berube and Mrs. Frances Clark.

Will they come forward and be sworn, please.

[Whereupon, Mr. Bertrand G. Berube and Ms. Frances P. Clark, having been first duly sworn, were called as witnesses.]

Senator CHILES. We are going to have to excuse ourselves for a minute. We have a vote in progress now and I understand that we are going to have maybe one or two votes before we come back.

As soon as we can, we'll resume.

[Whereupon, at 11:36 a.m., the hearing was recessed to reconvene the same day.]

AFTER RECESS

Senator CHILES. Mr. Berube and Ms. Clark, I'll remind you that you were sworn before we went.

You were asked here today because you used to be with the Office of Systems Acquisition, which was set up in General Services Administration.

You are also here because the General Accounting Office says that you were the only folks at GSA who had been right in interpreting major systems acquisition A-109 to fit the needs of General Services Office.

Finally, you are here because we found some interesting memorandum in GSA files which suggest that the failure to get A-109 going in GSA has been caused by more than an academic disagreement.

In September of 1976, the Office of Systems Acquisition was formed in GSA with you two as the staff; is that correct?

TESTIMONY OF BERTRAND BERUBE AND FRANCES P. CLARK, FORMER EMPLOYEES OF THE OFFICE OF ACQUISITION, GENERAL SERVICES ADMINISTRATION

Ms. CLARK. Yes.

Mr. BERUBE. Yes; it is.

Senator CHILES. Over the winter of 1976 and the spring of 1977, you went about drafting the directives, which would get the various services in compliance with A-109 and its personnel trained in its disciplines; is that correct?

Mr. BERUBE. That's true.

Ms. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Senator CHILES. I gather that there were some disagreements during that time?

Mr. BERUBE. There were many disagreements at that time.

Senator CHILES. I'd like our chief clerk to show you some documents that were found in the GSA files. There are two memorandums dated May 12 and May 26, 1977. They are addressed to the Deputy Administrator. They concern the conversations that you had with a Mr. Mollica, Special Assistant to the Deputy Administrator. Also, we have some accompanying handwritten memorandum concerning conversations that you had with Mr. Mollica on May 10 through May 27,

1977.

If we can get those, please.

I said we had some memorandums; I don't know that we have

We'll get those memorandums; they are on their way here now. The note attached to the May 26 memo states:

Attached for your information is a basic policy change taken by GSA as a result of Mr. Mollica's direction. I am proceeding on the basic assumption that this is also your position inasmuch as this is a position diametrically opposed to previous agreements between GSA and OMB. Senator Chiles and Lester Fettig and other members of the Subcommittee on Federal Spending Practices, I believe that it is essential that you be made aware of this change in direction.

That is a memorandum that you wrote?

Mr. BERUBE. As I remember putting it; yes.

Senator CHILES. What was the change of direction that you were referring to in that memorandum?

Mr. BERUBE. Basically, the bulk of the direction that we had been taking up until that time was as the result of meetings with the head of Office of Federal Procurement Policy and meetings that they were having with staff members of your committee, and that direction was being passed onto the different services of GSA as the proper interpretation of A-109 and how it should be implemented in GSA.

Now, the direction that we were given in many of those areas was diametrically opposed to those agreements and I was bringing it forth to my boss to make him aware of that change in direction, and make sure that he approved of it.

Senator CHILES. So, you were going to change from the draft order which GAO had said was correct to a system of do it in-house, which GAO had said was incorrect and subject to manipulation?

Mr. BERUBE. That is correct.

Senator CHILES. I'm interested in your reports of why Mr. Mollica made his decision. I want to read you some excerpts from these memorandums and ask you if they are correct and still your view of what transpired last year.

I will place all the memorandums in the record with the exception of some deleted explicatives.