Mr. DONOHUE. Was it approved by CAA? Mr. HEATH. No; it could not be approved until the school was properly set up. And that is what I was trying to help them to do. Mr. DONOHUE. Was that a condition precedent to them getting War Assets equipment? Mr. HEATH. No; that is one of the prerequisites. They had to get that equipment first before they could be approved. Mr. DONOHUE. What was the reason that the CAA did not approve it? Mr. HEATH. Because the school was not properly set up. There was quite a bit of work to be done before they could be even approved. Mr. DONOHUE. Did you do anything to get CAA to approve it? Mr. HEATH. No. Mr. DONOHUE. Why did you not? Mr. HEATH. Because they had not gotten all of the equipment they needed. Mr. DONOHUE. You know that the acquisition cost of the equipment that they did receive ran into, approximately, $7,000,000? Mr. HEATH. Well, I knew at the time that it was somewhere around five or six million dollars. Mr. DONOHUE. You say, with $7,000,000 worth of equipment they did not have the necessary equipment to set up a school? Mr. HEATH. They were lacking a lot of shop equipment and school equipment. I am thinking now of the educational. Mr. DONOHUE. Would you say they had a lot of equipment that was not necessary for setting up a school? Mr. HEATH. No, I would not say they had a lot. Mr. DONOHUE. What portion of the $7,000,000 would you say was surplus, insofar as equipment necessary to run the school? Mr. HEATH. That would be awfully hard. It would be a very, very small portion, because I'd have to check over all of their invoices. Mr. DONOHUE. You were with them, approximately, 5 months? Mr. HEATH. Let's see, July Mr. DONOHUE. Were you not? Mr. HEATH. September, October-I was with them about 4 months. Mr. DONOHUE. Four months? Mr. HEATH. With them about 4 months. Mr. DONOHUE. Well, in those 4 months you had an opportunity of ascertaining what equipment they did have? Mr. HEATH. Well, I couldn't-not until the very end did I see their invoices. Mr. DONOHUE. You were trying to get the school approved by CAA and you knew what equipment CAA required in order to have a school approved? Mr. HEATH. Yes. Mr. DONOHUE. And in order to find out what they did have you did make a survey of the equipment that they did acquire from War Assets? Mr. HEATH. That is right, at the end, because that was not my work. I did that at the last, oh, about the last month. Mr. DONOHUE. Well, in other words, you knew, you scanned the lists Mr. HEATH. Yes. Mr. DONOHUE. Of the requirements set up by CAA, and you checked that list against the equipment that you did have, is that right? Mr. HEATH. Not until way to the end there. Mr. DONOHUE. Well, in making representations to the CAA for the purpose of getting their approval, you had to represent, did you not, that they did have all of the requirements set up by CAA? Mr. HEATH. Yes. Mr. DONOHUE. How did you know that they had the equipment required by CAA if you did not make a survey of the properties that had been acquired from War Assets? Mr. HEATH. How did I know they did not have the necessary equipment, did you say? Mr. DONOHUE. Would you repeat the question? (The question was read.) Mr. HEATH. They had, I would say, most of the aircraft equipment that was necessary there, but it was the shop equipment that I wasthat they had not got that they needed. Mr. DONOHUE. How did you know that they did not have it? Mr. HEATH. Because tools-let's take a machine shop, they did not have lathes. In the welding shop they did not have the welding equipment. Mr. DONOHUE. How did you know they did not have the lathes and the welding equipment? Mr. HEATH. That would be right on the base, and I can see that equipment, in fact, I could Mr. DONOHUE. In other words, you did check? Mr. HEATH. Yes. Mr. DONOHUE. On the property? Mr. HEATH. On that equipment, on the shop equipment. Mr. DONOHUE. Did they make any attempt to get these lathes and this welding equipment? Mr. HEATH. Yes, but the market was pretty rugged. Mr. DONOHUE. I mean Mr. HEATH. None was available. Mr. DONOHUE. The question was, did they make any attempt to acquire it? Mr. HEATH. Yes. Mr. DONOHUE. From whom? Mr. HEATH. I do not know. By the way, some lists would come in, but the prices were too high. They would have to buy them out in the open market. Mr. DONOHUE. In other words, would you say that they made no purchases of equipment that would go into the school from any other source than War Assets? Mr. HEATH. I could not answer that. I do not Mr. DONOHUE. To the best of your knowledge did they make any purchases from anyone else other than War Assets of equipment necessary to go into this school? Mr. HEATH. I do not think so, I could not Mr. DONOHUE. That is all. Mr. LANTAFF. What was the nature of this November 1947 meeting; what was it called for? Mr. HEATH. To see whether they would reorganize and move down to Seymour, Ind. Mr. LANTAFF. Did they still want you to stay with them? Mr. HEATH. Yes. Mr. LANTAFF. At that time? Mr. HEATH. Yes, sir. Mr. LANTAFF. You stated in your previous testimony that you were interested, first of all, in getting the school certified, because you could not do anything at all unless you got the school certified by the CAA. During this period of time that you were with the school, from July of 1947 until October, was there available on the surplus property list any of the equipment that you needed in order to get the CAA approval? Mr. HEATH. There was, I would say there was some equipment, but the list that Pemberton had, the prices were not the same as are on educational disposal lists. What I mean by that, they did not get the low nominal prices, low nominal costs. They were too high for them to purchase. Mr. LANTAFF. They came in free to these educational institutions? Mr. HEATH. Not on some types of property. Mr. LANTAFF. None of this equipment, such as desks, shop tools, and so forth, were on the donable program? Mr. HEATH. No, that was awfully hard to get hold of. Once in a while there would be a small lot, but, evidently, other schools got hold of it first, but they never had an opportunity. Mr. LANTAFF. And Pemberton was not interested in acquiring it unless it was on the donable program, is that right? Mr. HEATH. That is right. They did not have the funds, either. Mr. LANTAFF. Did you ever see any of the shipping tags on the equipment that was there at the school? Mr. HEATH. Yes. Mr. LANTAFF. Do you recall whether or not most of the shipping tags recited that the property was shipped to the Bunker Hill School? Mr. HEATH. The shipping tags I would look at would be the green tags or pink tags that would have the property on what type of property it was. Mr. LANTAFF. It would not name the addressee? Mr. HEATH. Well, sometimes that was painted on the boxes or on the crates. Mr. LANTAFF. Was most of the equipment shipped to the Bunker Hill School? Mr. HEATH. It is the funniest thing, I never noticed that. Mr. LANTAFF. You did not? Mr. HEATH. No. Mr. LANTAFF. Did you file with the Veterans' Administration a copy of the training program? Mr. HEATH. No, I did not. Mr. LANTAFF. Do you know whether or not the Veterans' Administration ever approved this school as an approved training school? Mr. HEATH. No, I do not think they would, because it would have to be approved by the CAA first before they even get that. Mr. LANTAFF. Do you know whether or not the State of Indiana ever approved this Bunker Hill School of Aeronautics for veterantraining? Mr. HEATH. No, I do not; I do not know. Mr. LANTAFF. Was any effort made by you either with the Veterans' Administration or with the State department of veterans' affairs to obtain such approval? Mr. HEATH. No. Mr. LANTAFF. I do not know whether it will interest the subcommittee, but here are two exhibits, one from the State of Indiana, Department of Veterans' Affairs, and one from the Veterans' Administration, both a part of the GAO records in this case, which show that there was no record in either office of any training program or of any State approval or Veterans' Administration approval for the conduct of the Bunker Hill School of Aeronautics. I suggest that they be made a part of the record. Mr. BROWNSON. They are signed by whom? Mr. LANTAFF. The one from the Veterans' Administration is signed by Lowell C. Stanley, in Indianapolis, and for the State of Indiana, Department of Veterans' Affairs, it is signed by R. F. Robinson, executive secretary. (The letters referred to marked "Exhibits 33A and 33B" follow :) EXHIBIT 33A STATE OF INDIANA, DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS' AFFAIRS, Indianapolis 4, December 14, 1950. Re Bunker Hill School of Aeronautics and/or Indiana School of Aeronautics. Location: Bunker Hill, India., and/or Seymour, Ind. To Whom It May Concern: This certifies that the records of the State Approval Agency for Veteran Training of the State of Indiana do not reveal that either of the subject institutions have ever been approved for veteran training within the State of Indiana, nor is there any record of application being submitted for such approval. The undersigned has been executive secretary of the Indiana State Approval Committee continuously since July 15, 1945. The files of the training facilities section, vocational rehabilitation and education division, Veterans' Administration regional office, Indianapolis, Ind., contain no record of the receipt of approved copies of training programs or State approval of either the Bunker Hill School of Aeronautics, Bunker Hill, Ind., or the Indiana School of Aeronautics, Freeman Field, Seymour, Ind. A thorough search of the records has been made, and no employee of this section is aware of such an approval ever having been received in this office. LOWELL C. STANLEY, Chief, Training Facilities Section. Mr. LANTAFF. What were Mr. Gwin's duties at the school? Mr. HEATH. Well, he was the registrar. Mr. LANTAFF. He did not have any students to register. So what did he do? Mr. HEATH. That is true, but he did a lot on helping us set up the property and build partitions for classrooms. Mr. LANTAFF. Just sort of a general handy man? Mr. HEATH. That is right. In cleaning engines, anything that we had, all had to dig into that kind of work. Mr. LANTAFF. That is all. Mr. DONOHUE (presiding). Are there any questions, Mr. Bonner? Mr. BONNER. No. Mr. DONOHUE. Mr. Fine? Mr. FINE. No questions. Mr. DONOHUE. Mr. Brownson, do you have any further questions? Mr. BROWNSON. Mr. Chairman, after a lot of consideration about this Bunker Hill matter and investigation of some of the aspects of it while I was back in Indiana and without representation as a member of the committee, I have come to the conclusion that for the committee to reach its final decision on this matter it would be very worth while and I would strongly recommend that the committee hold at least one meeting at the Bunker Hill Air Base itself in order to see the proposition physically, because from a physical standpoint you get an entirely different angle of this thing than I think you do here in the committee room. That is a recommendation for your consideration. And that would be my recommendation for what it is worth. Mr. BONNER. I would like for you to defer that. Mr. BROWNSON. I am not putting any time on it at all. Mr. BROWNSON. Before the final report. I want to make it as a matter of recommendation. Mr. BONNER. It will, certainly, be taken under consideration by the committee and discussed. Mr. DONOHUE. Before the committee adjourns I would like to have the record indicate that Mr. Fine and Mr. Bonner and myself are also present. I would like to ask the members if there are any other questions that the membership would like to ask of Mr. Heath? How about you, Mr. Brownson? Mr. BROWNSON. No. Mr. DONOHUE. The meeting is now adjourned. (Whereupon, at 11 a. m., the subcommittee adjourned.) |