Mr. SHORT. Oh, sure, he would give us an accounting of it. Mr. SHORT. I think you have it on record here. Mr. CURTIS. I am asking you personally whether you personally know that. I am not asking for the records. Mr. SHORT. I know it from the conversations that have went on here today. Mr. CURTIS. But it has been given to you as president? Mr. SHORT. You see, this thing has only happened here just of late. Mr. CURTIS. What do you mean "of late," the last 2 months? Mr. SHORT. In the last-let's see; must have been in the last 3 months. Mr. CURTIS. The last 3 months? Mr. SHORT. Three or four months. Mr. CURTIS. In other words, you, as president, have not kept very close touch with this thing, have you? Mr. SHORT. Not lately, I haven't, no; because there is nothing to keep in touch with. It has been very dormant. Mr. CURTIS. I would say that if $32,000 has been realized on the sale of that, that is pretty much to keep in touch with, is it not? Mr. SHORT. Well, that is true, I agree to that, but he was paying up back bills, I mean, as far as that is concerned. Mr. CURTIS. I have no further questions. Mr. BONNER. The committee will be in order. There is only one question the Chair would like to ask you. You spoke about all of these attorneys you have had trouble with. Was Mr. Moo-you did not mention him-was he attorney for you? Mr. SHORT. Mr. Moo is with Mr. BONNER. Mr. Moo is with Mr. Miller? His name is Miller. Are they attorneys for you as president? Mr. SHORT. Mr. Miller is the attorney out of Detroit. Mr. BONNER. Sir? Mr. SHORT. They were out of Detroit, but they come into the picture later. Mr. BONNER. They came into the picture when? Mr. SHORT. Later in this picture. Mr. BONNER. What time—what time? Mr. SHORT. I would have to check on the date of that. Mr. BONNER. That is all right. You do not have it, then? Mr. SHORT. That is right. Mr. BONNER. You just do not know who they were attorneys for, but they came to Washington? Mr. SHORT. That is right. Mr. BONNER. And at whose instructions-you, as president now of the school, or whose instructions did they come down here to Washington? Mr. SHORT. Well, I think Mr. BONNER. To see the chairman of the committee? Mr. SHORT. Mr. Zick and Mr. Harrah, I think, were the two fel lows that were Mr. BONNER. Did you concur in that? Mr. SHORT. How? Mr. BONNER. Did vou concur in that trip here? Mr. SHORT. I didn't come to Washington. Mr. BONNER. I say, did you concur in their visit to Washington? Mr. SHORT. Yes. Mr. BONNER. You knew about it? Mr. SHORT. That is right. Mr. BONNER. Are there any further questions of this witness? Mr. HOFFMAN. I have plenty of them. Mr. BONNER. Excuse me. Pardon me. Mr. HOFFMAN. I have been trying to think about them. You were questioned by Mr. Donohue, and very properly, about your qualifications to participate in the operation of the school of this kind. Is it correct to assume that you did not know anything about flying? Mr. SHORT. I don't know too much about flying. Mr. HOFFMAN. And you were not, so far as you understood, te have any part in teaching people to fly? Mr. SHORT. That is right. Mr. HOFFMAN. Or anything connected with the mechanical part of the teaching? Mr. SHORT. I was not to have any part of that; no. Mr. HOFFMAN. Were you just to sort of give financial support? Mr. SHORT. I think that was it. Mr. HOFFMAN. The figurehead as a president? Mr. SHORT. That is right. Mr. HOFFMAN. Along the lines that he asked you there, bearing on the qualifications of someone to be president of an educational institution, could you tell us what, if any, qualifications General Eisenhower has to be president of the University of Pennsylvania? Mr. SHORT. I would not know. Mr. CURTIS. It is the University of Columbia. Mr. HOFFMAN. Stassen was in Pennsylvania. Do you know any thing about the qualifications of either one of them for those jobs? Mr. SHORT. No. Mr. HOFFMAN. Getting back to this case, as I understand the chairman, I will be very happy to have him tell me, the only two issues, as I understand, and if I am not correct— Mr. BONNER. There are four issues. Mr. HOFFMAN. Two of them are the good faith of these people in purchasing this property when they had not, or when the school had not been certified. That is one, is it not? proper Mr. BONNER. Well now, the question before the committee is authorization, certification, the acquisition of the property, the sale and the disposal, and the circumstances surrounding these. Mr. HOFFMAN. One point was that the school had obtained property without being properly certified. That is one, is it not? Mr. BONNER. That is what we are inquiring into. Mr. HOFFMAN. That is what we are inquiring about. And another one, as I get from the questions and answers about the school as to the right of this-what do you call it. I don't know-this de facto in this case, de facto corporation. Mr. BONNER. The boys were together. Mr. HOFFMAN. The right of these boys-I hope to God as long as I live I have two good friends like this fellow has, don't you—the right of the boys to dispose of this property because they did not come under the classification as scrap. That is one question; is it not? I have great respect for the chairman. What are the other two? They slipped my mind. Mr. BONNER. The committee is interested in the organization of this proposed school. The committee is interested in the manner in which it was certified by the Government agencies to receive disposal property. Then the committee is interested in the acquisition of the property. And, fourth, those who acquired the property again to sell it. dispose of it. The committee is interested in those four things, and they are the four things that this committee is interested in. Mr. HOFFMAN. Thank you. The rest of the testimony just sheds light on those four. There was a charge here that went out to the papers that these gentlemen were guilty of fraud. Is there anything of that kind in this case? Mr. BONNER. Mr. Hoffman, I answered that question before. I asked the committee to hold their minds open, after we heard the first report, until we had this hearing, and leave that word out of the picture altogether. There is another question that might interest you. There has been no testimony here concerning property as needed to conduct the school. You understand, under the program it must be shown that the property is needed, and necessary. Mr. HOFFMAN. The General Accounting Office did charge, do you not see, did charge fraud. Mr. BONNER. I do not think it is a charge there, if you will pardon me. I think their report is a matter of their findings, as they find them. We are here now to determine whether their findings are correct. And, of course, we asked them to make a further study, and they are to make a further report based on this hearing and the facts that they find in addition to it in the field. Mr. HOFFMAN. Because of these charges two of these young men here, their jobs are here, and their employers have men watching this proceeding. I think they are entitled to know whether there is a charge of fraud against any of these men. Mr. BONNER. Again I tell you no charges have been discussed in the committee. Mr. HOFFMAN. Have they been made? Mr. BONNER. No charges have been made, sir, by the committee. Mr. HOFFMAN. The charge was made by the General Accounting Office representative. Mr. BONNER. That is your opinion from reading the report and your deduction from the report. Mr. HOFFMAN. No. Mr. BONNER. I am not going to argue with you, my dear friend. Go ahead and ask the witness questions. Mr. HOFFMAN. Then I suppose I will have to do that at a later time. Here is the newspaper article story given by Mr. Cartwright, so the AP says, and I think when a Government agency charges a man with fraud it should either come in with evidence or not make the charge. A citizen has some rights. I trust the chairman's fairness. I do not have the slightest question, never have had, over the years, to doubt that. But I will ask, Mr. Chairman, that Mr. Cartwright, when he testifies in the future, bring 83113--51--15 with him any definitions that the General Accounting office has as to the term "scrap," any rulings that they have made as to the manner in which the material can be sold, where it has been obtained fromthe War Assets Administration-and any rulings or definitions of the War Assets Administration on that subject. Mr. BONNER. You heard it read into the record. Mr. HOFFMAN. How is that? Mr. BONNER. You heard that paragraph read into the record. Mr. HOFFMAN. No, no; I guess I did not make myself clear. A definition as to the meaning of the word "scrap." The paragraph uses it, but what does it mean? I have no questions. Oh, yes; I have, too. This letter, I want to call it to your attention, sir. They have talked about the FBI here. This letter was exhibit 18, and is headed at the top: "Federal Bureau of Investigation, United States Department of Justice." And it is dated January 25, 1950, which I understand from the testimony is to show was after the sale or before the sale of these engines that we have been talking about. And this letter here, it is in, but I want to call attention to this: This is to advise that your written contract with the War Assets Administration concerning the property which you have stored at Freeman Field, Seymour, Ind., has been presented to the United States attorney, B. Howard Caughran, of Indianapolis, for his opinion as to the Federal Government's jurisdiction in this case. Mr. Caughran has advised this office that it is his opinion that title of this property has definitely passed to the purchaser mentioned in this contract and that the Federal Government maintains no jurisdiction over this property. My purpose in repeating that is to call attention to it; that it is not the opinion of anyone in the Attorney General's office, in the FBI. The FBI man is quoting the United States district attorney. That is all I have. Mr. BONNER. The Attorney General of the United States would be the proper person to determine a question of this kind. These people only assist the Department of Justice to find property that they say had been stolen. Mr. HOFFMAN. That may well be. Mr. BONNER. The district attorney in that case said it did not come under the scope of the operation, but that is all right. Mr. HOFFMAN. Yes. Mr. BONNER. Is there any further questioning? Mr. SHORT. I want to make myself clear that it was my understanding that this material belonged to us. And, as far as the definition of "scrap" is concerned, I have never seen any record where the Supreme Court has ever ruled on anything what scrap was. Mr. BONNER. Do you keep up with the decisions of the Supreme Court? Mr. SHORT. I read quite a bit. Mr. BONNER. Sir? Mr. SHORT. I read quite a bit. Mr. BONNER. Sir? Mr. SHORT. I say I read quite a bit. Mr. BONNER. Tell me some of the recent decisions. Mr. SHORT. Oh, well, I am no attorney on that. Mr. BONNER. That is all. TESTIMONY OF HARVEY G. McCOMB, INDIANA DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION FOR THE DISPOSAL OF SURPLUS PROPERTY Mr. BONNER. Will you be sworn? Do you solemnly swear that in the evidence you are about to give to the subcommittee you will tell the truth and the whole truth, in all matters and inquiries now pending before the subcommittee? Mr. MCCOMB. I do. Mr. BONNER. Mr. McComb, will you give your full name to the reporter and your identification to the reporter? Mr. McCOMB. Harvey G. McComb. And I am, or was at the time that this was going on, the executive officer of the Indiana Department of Education for the disposal of surplus property. Mr. BONNER. Now then, if it will please the committee, suppose we ask Mr. McComb questions that deal with the certification of the Bunker Hill School, since he was the State official at the time the Bunker Hill School was certified. Mr. MCCOMB. Yes. Mr. BONNER. Prior to the other questions, that will be a repetition of what has gone on before. Mr. McCOMB. I certified them, Mr. Chairman. Remember that Peru is centrally located in the State of Indiana, beautifully located. They have in this center, in this, on this area, they had buildings. They had a model swimming pool and they had all of the possibilities of a school, except equipment. Now you must remember at that time we were giving out, we were helping dispose of surplus property. That was part of my job. When we convinced ourselves that they were a nonprofit institution-and that was the question that was raised before this certification symbol was granted-the certification symbol was actually granted June 13, 1947, and it was granted to the Indiana or to the Bunker Hill School of Aeronautics, after we convinced ourselves that they were organized as a nonprofit institution. And we convinced Mr. Lavin of the office that they were so certified. That is Charles G. Lavin. I have a statement to that effect right here. Mr. BONNER. If you will let me interrupt you at this point, we want to get at some of the history of the early certification of the Bunker Hill School. Did you have anything to do with that? Mr. McCOMB. You are talking about the public? Mr. BONNER. I have a copy of your certification. Mr. McCOMB. You are talking about the public school of Bunker Hill? Mr. BONNER. I do not know. Nobody seems to know just what it is. You have a Bunker Hill High School? Mr. McCOMB. I can tell you what it is. Mr. BONNER. You have other things. Who certified the Bunker Hill School? Mr. McCOMB. Yes: I see it. Pardon me. I can tell you what it is. Mr. McCоMB. In the first place, Mr. Chairman, all public schools were certified as being eligible to surplus property. The certification symbol for the Bunker Hill Public School was 12A428, I think. That is one of about 800 certifications that were given out to all public schools. Mr. BONNER. After that |