Mr. THOMAS. What is the man-years? We will transfer it to jobs. Admiral HIRSCH. Man-years for 1963 are 73,892. Mr. THOMAS. That is man-years? Admiral HIRSCH. That is right. Mr. THOMAS. You can add 11 percent to that. That will make it about 85,000 or 86,000 jobs or positions. What do they average in civil service classifications? Admiral HIRSCH. The average pay in 1963 with the pay raise was $6,255. In 1962 the pay averaged $6,001. The average GS grade has remained constant at 6.6. Mr. THOMAS. How many vacancies do you have as of March 1? Admiral HIRSCH. For graded personnel we had a ceiling of-this is graded personnel Navy-wide Mr. THOMAS. I am talking about civilians now. Admiral HIRSCH. These are civilian graded personnel but I cannot give it to you Mr. THOMAS. All of them were subject to the same pay raise. Admiral HIRSCH. 138,457 is our Navy-wide ceiling, and as of January 31, 1963, we had 135,842 people on board. Mr. THOMAS. How do you get that many when you only had appropriated funds for certainly no more than 85,000? Admiral HIRSCH. The figures I have do not relate themselves to this appropriation specifically. I was showing you or trying to show you that against a total ceiling we have of 138,000 we have 135,842 on board. This indicates the close working margin between authorized ceiling and actual on board count. Mr. THOMAS. Your figures and your words do not gibe, Admiral. You cannot come over here looking for $30 or $40 million without having some accurate information on it. Admiral HIRSCH. In other words, we are within 2,600 people of being up to our authorized ceiling of 138,000 graded employees. Mr. THOMAS. What is that figure, 8,000? Admiral HIRSCH. One hundred Mr. THOMAS. You used the figure of 8,000 of being up to ceiling? Admiral HIRSCH. We have a ceiling of 138,457 and we are at 135,842 so we are within less than 2,600 of the total number that we are allowed to have in graded employees. Mr. THOMAS. You can certainly absorb the 10 percent cut in this. Admiral HIRSCH. We have already absorbed 34 percent of the total pay increase for these 135,000 people. Mr. THOMAS. All you have to do is not fill half of those vacancies for the end of the fiscal year and you can absorb it twice. Admiral HIRSCH. We are phasing down under O. & M.N. from 74,267 at the beginning of this year to 72,698 at the end of next year. Our figures take into account this reduction and have priced it in order to come out with what I consider to be a precise dollar figure. Mr. THOMAS. You are pretty good if you can figure out 138,000 or 140,000 personnel in 90 days down to 1,000 or 1,500 jobs. The experience throughout the Government is you have an annual turnover of about 17 percent. Admiral HIRSCH. There is a turnover, but they are on the downgrade and we are close to the ceiling. TRAVEL PER DIEM Mr. THOMAS. You have an item of $2,815,000 for travel per diem. That is changing duty stations, for both officers and enlisted men? Admiral HIRSCH. For temporary additional duty of officers and enlisted men on official business. Mr. THOMAS. How close are you to that? Admiral HIRSCH. Obligation wise we are right on schedule for the percentage of the year gone by. Mr. THOMAS. What was the travel money appropriated for the Navy in 1963? Admiral HIRSCH. We had in 1963 $155 million for permanent change of station travel under "Military personnel, Navy." We have reduced our requirement from $155 million that was appropriated by Congress down to $140 million. Mr. THOMAS. $155 million? Admiral HIRSCH. Down to $140 million. That is the reduction we have made in the amount Congress gave us for this year. This is how we were able to pick up a part of the $19 million we are absorbing in the funds for basic allowance for quarters. This has come very hard. OPERATION AND MAINTENANCE, MARINE CORPS Mr. THOMAS. "Operation and maintenance, Marine Corps," $1,555,000. Put pages 5 and 6 in the record. (The pages follow:) The increase of $1,555,000 above that presently available for this appropriation will provide (1) additional costs as a result of enactment of Public Law 87-500 which amended the Career Compensation Act of 1949 by increasing per diem rates and providing reimbursement under certain circumstances for actual expenses incident to travel; (2) additional costs attributable to part 11, Public Law 87-793, the Federal Salary Reform Act of 1962. Details are (a) Per diem rate increase. The increase will provide for payment of the new per diem rate of $16 in place of the old $12 rate to military personnel who are placed in a travel status with resultant entitlement to per diem. Involved under this appropriation is the per diem related to temporary additional duty of military personnel at Headquarters, Marine Corps and Marine Corps posts and stations___. +$470,000 Operation and maintenance, Marine Corps—Continued (b) Federal Salary Reform Act of 1962. The added costs attributable to this purpose are the result of application of the pay increase as provided by Public Law 87-793 to rates of applicable currently employed or projected employment of civilian personnel as funded under this appropriation___. Total increase__. A summary of changes by budget activities is as follows: -+$1,085, 000 +1, 555, 000 Increase Mr. THOMAS. That is broken down, $170,000 for per diem rate increase. The per diem goes from $12 to $16. Then you have $1,085,000 for the pay act increase. What did the pay act cost you altogether for civilians? Admiral HIRSCH. That is the figure that it cost the Marines. Admiral HIRSCH. Yes. Mr. THOMAS. They did not absorb any? Admiral HIRSCH. No. They have a serious problem in connection with Cuba for a MATS bill of $1 million that I am currently struggling with to find some way to pay. Mr. THOMAS. How many civilian employees does the Marine Corps have now? Admiral HIRSCH. 5,700. Mr. THOMAS. 5,741? Admiral HIRSCH. These are graded personnel we are talking about. Mr. THOMAS. The others are taken care of by the wage board? Admiral HIRSCH. Yes, sir. Mr. THOMAS. How many vacancies do you have? Admiral HIRSCH. In the Marine Corps on January 31 they had a ceiling of 5,982 and they had on board 5,741. They are within about 200 of their ceiling. Mr. THOMAS. You folks do a better job than the civilian agencies. Admiral HIRSCH. We have to do a good job to get our work done with the steady decrease of civilians we have every year. Mr. THOMAS. Admiral, you will make me cry now. love with the Navy 27 years. I have been in Let us take a look at the table on page 6. What do these figures mean? You show the increase in per diem, graded pay, and total. Admiral HIRSCH. That is right. Mr. THOMAS. This is a summary sheet of your training and operations, depot supply system, Marine Corps Reserve training, cataloging, and departmental administration. What are these figures, dollars or numbers? Admiral HIRSCH. These are dollars and, unfortunately they were not totaled at the bottom. Mr. THOMAS. Admiral, I saw that last night and just laid it aside. Here is a little item of a million dollars and they did not think enough about it to add it up. Admiral HIRSCH. That was not our intention. Mr. THOMAS. Any questions? Mr. WILSON. No questions. Mr. THOMAS. Thank you, Admiral. Admiral HIRSCH. If I may, before I leave I would like to make a statement. Of the total requirement for the items in this supplemental request we have absorbed $33.5 million. On top of this the Cuban quarantine costs were absorbed in the amount of $47.8 million. And hurricane damage on Guam has cost "Operations and maintenance" alone, $11.2 million. In addition we had buildings destroyed for which $25 million will be required for replacement. Mr. THOMAS. At the end of the fiscal year how much cash in all accounts will we have for the Navy? Admiral HIRSCH. We will have unexpended but programed about $12 billion. Mr. THOMAS. Admiral, you ought to go in the banking business with that $12 billion. I know of a fellow who wants to go in the banking business and all he has is $100,000. Here you have $12 billion. You ought to be in the banking business. Admiral HIRSCH. This year we have absorbed $14 million, about 34 percent, of civilian classified pay increase and another $26 million for blue collar wages that apply only to O. & M. operations. Mr. THOMAS. What was O. & M. for the Navy last year? Admiral HIRSCH. O. & M. last year for the Navy was $2,836,292,000. Mr. THOMAS. And you are around here singing the blues? Admiral HIRSCH. We have already absorbed a total of $134 million and we have had to reduce important programs to accomplish this. Mr. THOMAS. What was the total Navy budget for last year? Admiral HIRSCH. $15.2 billion. Mr. THOMAS. What is it for 1964? Admiral HIRSCH. Our new obligational authority in 1963 was $15,255 million. In 1964 we are requesting $15,242 million. It is relatively level for both years. Mr. THOMAS. If we should send you back to your regular committee it would not sink the Navy, would it? (Discussion off the record.) Mr. THOMAS. Thank you very much, Admiral, you and your staff. |