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straight. Didn't I recall yesterday that you testified that you spent the whole afternoon with the Secretary of the Army?
Mr. HARDY. He wasn't here.
Mr. HÉBERT. I thought it would be somebody else. Did you testify to that, Mr. Morris!
Secretary MORRIS. I did indeed, sir.
Mr. HÉBERT. That is how we are going to get along. I asked you a simple question to clear the record up and you answered it. If we continue in that vein, we will get along fine.
Mr. Gavin. I am asking the question whether the present Secretary of the Army reached a decision and approved the closing of this base.
Secretary MORRIS. I can answer from personal knowledge that he did, sir, with respect
Mr. Gavin. He did ?
Mr. HARDY. At least he signed the decision. And he took the responsibility for the decision.
Secretary MORRIS. Correct, sir.
Mr. HARDY. Whether or not he had any real good understanding of what he was doing.
Mr. HÉBERT. Have you gentlemen any further questions?
General, are you familiar--and I presume you are—with the physical location of Erie and the surrounding territory?
General LYNDE. Yes, sir.
Mr. LATTA. I notice here that you have marked on page 8 of your statement that there isn't any potential solid propellent missiles at Erie. Upon what did you base that conclusion?"
General LYNDE. The real estate is restricted there, sir. They do not have at Erie sufficient space to receive these large missiles that are now in development.
Mr. LATTA. How much space do you need, General?
Mr. Latra. And the reason for that is probably the possibility of one of these bombs exploding or this missile exploding.
General LYNDE. That is correct, sir.
Mr. LaTTA. In arriving at this decision, have you taken into consideration that to the north of Erie is Lake Erie, all out there for miles and miles?
General LYNDE. Yes, sir.
General LYNDE. Mr. Latta, that is an area that in order to even maintain security while we are firing there, we have got to patrol.
Mr. LATTA. We understand that. But you got miles out there, not only acres—you said 4,000 acres. But you have miles out there.
General LYNDE. You are right.
Mr. LATTA. So that argument doesn't prevail here.
General LYNDE. We operate our guard boats out there during a time schedule that has been arranged with the local community so as to
Mr. LATTA. I am sorry, gentlemen, we are getting off the subject.
I am familiar with the firing out there, that you got to have these patrol boats and so forth.
Now I am getting back to my question. You said that you used 4,000 acres in determining whether or not there is potential for solid propellent missile bases in these areas. My question was whether or not you took in the physical location of Erie, on the shores of Lake Erie-where you have miles out there, and not only acres, but you have much more than 4,000 acres there, out to the north, from Èrie Ordnance Depot.
Now my question is whether or not you took that into consideration when you made this decision that there was no potential there, at Erie?
General LYNDE. No, sir.
Isn't it much safer to have miles of open space out there, than just 4,000 acres ?
General LYNDE. Mr. Latta, I don't consider that open space. I am well aware, as are you, of the pressures that are brought on us by the community to limit our firings to certain hours, the necessity for patrolling that area, and so on. If
Mr. LATTA. I care nothing about the pressures, and neither do you, General. They don't affect this thing one iota. You would fire out into that lake regardless of the pressures being brought to bear. I know about the commercial fishermen yelling to high heaven, that you have interfered with their fishing. In fact, one of the largest fisheries in the area has just shut down, on July 1, due to that firing.
You don't care one iota about those pressures and neither do I, when the national defense is at stake. Now then we come back to the question. Not firing out there for miles into that lake, as you have been doing, in testing out there at Erie Ordnance Depot. But we come back to the question of 4,000 acres that you have used as a criterion, if you please, in establishing the fact that these other five depots are potential areas for using, or a depot for solid propellent missiles. And you have admitted, General, that you didn't take that into consideration, and my question now is why didn't you?
General LYNDE. As I have answered previously, I did not consider it clear area.
Mr. LATTA. Well, now, look, General, when you are firing out into Lake Erie, you shut off that area for miles don't you?
General LYNDE. For-yes, sir.
Mr. LATTA. All right. Could you tell for the record how many acres, square acres, there are in a mile?
You don't have to answer that question.
But certainly if you would shut off just a few miles thrre, you would answer this question about 4,000 acres. But you are out there for miles shutting that off, and certainly the people in Congressman Ashley's district and in my district would be perfectly willing to shut off those few miles out there in Lake Erie, just as you are doing now for firing out into that lake.
Now, then, would you do this? Would you reconsider this matter, General, in view of this information that apparently you didn't take into consideration?
General LYNDE. I assure you, Mr. Latta, that if and when the time comes up to consider the matter of advance type missiles at Erie, we will consider it.
Mr. LATTA. I want to see it on this chart, though. This is the thing that you fellows down there are going to be looking at, in the immediate and foreseeable future. You are going to be looking at this chart and you are going to go down that line, and it doesn't say anything about Lake Erie on this chart. It doesn't say anything on this chart that there is a potential at Erie Ordnance Depot for this type missile. There isn't anything there.
But I want to see it in print, so that the other fellows who sit in that witness chair and the other fellows down at the Pentagon will know what went on here this afternoon. That is what I would like to see.
And all I am asking for is a fair shake. We have taken it on the chin for years up there at Rossford. Your record will reflect it. We probably had 4,000 or 5,000 people up there at Rossford, and you kept cutting us down and cutting us down, and in the interest of national defense we took it sitting down. We are taking it sitting down again in this case when you phase us completely out of Rossford. But I think it is high time that we stand up and say to the Department of Defense, “It is time that you reexamine this potential at Erie,” because the same area is affected.
Don't you think that is a fair shake!
General LYNDE. Mr. Latta, we will make a memo for the record of your comments and put it in the file.
Mr. LATTA. No, no, General, not my comments. I want to state the facts as to whether or not that potential exists at Erie. And I want it shown up here on page 8. If that potential is there, I want it here. I think it is only fair to the people of northern Ohio.
General LYNDE. I would like to remind you that there also are a number of physical facilities that are required to make an adequate ammunition receiving and work area.
Mr. Latra. What is lacking at Erie?
Mr. HÉBERT. I think, gentlemen, we are getting off. Erie is not before the committee. I have allowed the discussion to go along.
Mr. Ashley. I have one further question.
Mr. II ÉBERT. Erie is not before the committee. I think we know pretty much now. We are talking about Rossford.
Mr. Latta. If the chairman will yield for just a comment on that? They are in the same area and as has been pointed out here before. there were supposed to have been some of the missions at Rossford transferred to Erie. And we found out in Congressman Ashley's interrogation of the general, that only six people are to be transferred from Rossford to Erie. And we don't think that is much of a transfer, and if there is a potential here at Erie to do this same type work-and these people now at Erie have been trained in missile work, haven't they, General? They have been doing that?
General LYNDE. Yes, sir.
Mr. LATTA. For several years, only with a different type of propellant.
General LYNDE. Yes, sir.
And it doesn't seem very wise to just mark Erie off here and say there is no potential there and forget that.
Mr. HÉBERT. Well, all right. That finishes Erie now.
Mr. Ashley. A further question with respect to Rossford, if I may, Mr. Chairman. I will be brief. General, you said-your testimony was that decision with respect to Rossford was made in the early part of 1960, to phase it out, is that correct?
Mr. HÉBERT. No, the recommendation was made, he said.
Mr. HÉBERT. The decision wasn't reached—was reached after he made the recommendation.
Mr. Ashley. Isn't it true that there was a 6-month study of Mount Rainier and Benicia in addition to the so-called XYZ study which is an additional 3 months, with respect to the phasing out of those installations?
General LYNDE. The depot X study was region III, and then Y and Z took care of the two other regions.
Mr. ASHLEY. Were there similar studies of Rossford ?
General LYNDE. My recollection is that that ran from about April through August of 1960.
Mr. AsHLEY. After the recommendation?
General LYNDE. Well, the recommendation was in 1961—I mean the recommendation was in the middle of 1960.
Mr. ASHLEY. Following the study?
General LYNDE. To answer that specifically, I would have to get the study and read the date on it.
Mr. FİÉBERT. Supply that date later, please.
Mr. ASHLEY. Why is it, General, that there wasn't any detailed plan for the phasing out of the activities of Rossford at the time of the issuance of the March 30 order, if, as you say, the recommendation had been made a year before!
General LYNDE. When we go into a detailed plan, it is full of a lot of details. As you have witnessed up there, the number of people were transferred with such and such a mission, the number of dollars and whether you have the space, and so on. It is a long and extensive detail.
The plan-I mean the study by the group with reference to the area and so on concerns itself with maintenance capacity, storage capacity covered and uncovered, ammunition storage capacity, and elements of that sort. It allows you to make a conclusion, but it is not a sufficient basis for saying that so and so will be transferred to
such and such an installation, as a transfer of function, and with his grade.
Mr. ASHLEY. There was a total of 9 months' study put to Benicia and Mount Rainier, isn't that true? The 6 months' study followed by the XYZ study?
General LYNDE. Well, XYZ is the whole country, the whole three of them.
Mr. Ashley. All right. General LYNDE. I would say in that first study we were learning. The other studies, we benefited from the experience we had gained.
Mr. ASHLEY. And that is why the study of Rossford took a considerably shorter length of time?
General LYNDE. Yes, sir.
Mr. NORBLAD. As a representative of a State from the Far West, if my brethren will allow me, I would like to say for the record that a statement was made, I have forgotten by which one, to the effect that you are closing down these plants and moving out to the West.
The fact of the matter in the West we have had two of the four closures, on the west coast, with an employment of over 4,000, in the States of California and Washington. They are not moving to the West. We are getting worse treatment.
Mr. LATTA. Mr. Chairman, I will say to the gentleman
Mr. HÉBERT. Let's not get into a discussion of merits of the East and West.
Mr. LATTA. No. (Further remark made off the record.] This is off the record
Mr. HÉBERT. Put it on the record. We know you mean to prolong.
Apparently at each of these arsenals now when we were considering the probability of missiles with solid fuel, this 2 by 3 miles or 4,000 acres is the important factor. [Deleted.]
(General Lynde nods.) Mr. SANDWEG. Then what is going to be your problem of transporting the missile to the place or the area and back again as far as the present regulations for transporting explosives is concerned?
General LYNDE. [Deleted.]
Mr. SANDWEG. Are there laws presently in effect for this, or will you have to get them?
Mr. STANFORD. Yes, sir, the Interstate Commerce Commission bas the laws on the books today.
Mr. SANDWEG. That is what I wanted to clear up.