Mr. HARDY. General, did you make the presentation to him? Mr. HARDY. Mr. Chairman, I would just like to make this observation. There is a whole lot to be desired in this kind of a proposition. Here we went through a situation here yesterday when it became rather clear that this was an unusual type of operation, that everything was done was announced to try to take everybody by surprise. Apparently that's what was done here. And I don't know why you won't admit the part which you played in this thing, if you know. This whole thing-it is a most disappointing experience for me. Secretary MORRIS. Mr. Chairman, may I comment at this point? Mr. HARDY. Mr. Secretary, if you can, and if you can shed any light on this thing that will clear this up and keep the general from looking as bad as he looks now to me, it would be appreciated. Secretary MORRIS. I would be delighted to, Mr. Hardy. As I indicated yesterday, the President in his state of the Union message said among several priority assignments he had given the Secretary of Defense was that of an immediate review of our status of our installations and base structure. This was undertaken as among the first acts of the new administration. As I indicated, I was put in charge of a task force from the three departments, representing the Secretaries of those departments, to quickly assess the status of all studies which had been underway, for matters as have been brought out here today, for up to 2 years. This we did. During this period of assessment, which continued for several weeks, we deliberately did not release any information because we were a new group and we needed to assess the kind of studies that had been made, the people who had made those studies, and the soundness of the conclusions. The general is completely proper in saying that he was not at liberty to discuss the status of these studies during the period of February, when his Chief of Staff Mr. HARDY. Mr. Secretary, I know that. Mr. HARDY. And I don't question the propriety of his saying that. Mr. HARDY. He did not answer the question that I asked him. Mr. HÉBERT. Wait, now. Mr. HARDY. Did you mean to tell me that a man wearing two stars has got to get a civilian to answer for him? Mr. HÉBERT. Wait, Mr. Hardy. Mr. Secretary, you can't answer for the general, not to this committee. The general must answer for himself. Secretary MORRIS. Well, I meant only, sir, to point out that it was a matter of Secretary of Defense policy during the period of February and March, that the matters we had under study were to be kept from general circulation because they were under evaluation by a new group of people. Mr. HARDY. That is the kind of answer I expected to get from the general. Mr. HÉBERT. That is right, but the general didn't answer. Mr. HARDY. That is the disappointing part of it. I knew what the answer was. Mr. HÉBERT. Mr. Hardy asked the general: Was this unusual procedure? The general has yet to answer the question. Now it either was or wasn't, and the general certainly knows whether it was or wasn't. Now I ask you the question, General, wasn't this unusual procedure? General LYNDE. No, sir, this was not an unusual procedure. We had been given to understand and had been prohibited from communicating any of the information contained in these studies until it had the final approval of the Secretary of Army. Mr. GAVIN. Who Mr. HÉBERT. Wait a minute now. Is that the case in everything? General LYNDE. That was the case in studies Mr. HÉBERT. Involving this service. General LYNDE. This type of work. Mr. HÉBERT. This type of work. But it has not been the policy in the past, and you know it, General. We have been informed of everything that is going on, until this instant. General LYNDE. That is correct. Mr. HARDY. I have been sitting here for 14 years Mr. HÉBERT. Wait a minute. So now it is an unusual procedure, in this instance. It is not the usual procedure. Mr. GAVIN. Who-may I ask-who gave you those instructions, to prohibit you from making public such determinations as you reached? General LYNDE. Mr. Secretary Brucker. Mr. GAVIN. What? General LYNDE. Mr. Secretary Brucker. Mr. GAVIN. Well, Secretary Brucker is gone now. This you are talking about was made in February and March of this year, I presume. Is that right? General LYNDE. Yes, sir. Mr. GAVIN. You wouldn't be working under Secretary Brucker now. General LYNDE. Yes, sir. However Mr. GAVIN. You made up your mind, is that right, in February and March on this particular base. You made up your mind this year, or announced it publicly this year. You weren't taking-certainly you wouldn't be taking any instructions from a previous or predecessor Secretary of the Army, would you? General LYNDE. Instructions continue until they are countermanded or amended, sir. Mr. GAVIN. Well, certainly you must have taken it up with the Secretary, the new Secretary, relative to the matter. And what was his decision? General LYNDE. I did not take it up with the new Secretary. When the presentation was made to the new Secretary, General Colglazier was in attendance and Colonel Graves of my Office was the talking man. Mr. GAVIN. You don't mean to tell me that the Secretary didn't reach a decision on it, to tell you whether to proceed or whether to stop where you were? He must have-what was his recommendation? The present Secretary, I am talking about. (General Lynde confers with Colonel Hall.) Mr. HÉBERT. To refresh my memory, while you are looking that up, General, didn't I recall yesterday-I just want to set the record straight. Didn't I recall yesterday that you testified that you spent the whole afternoon with the Secretary of the Army? Mr. HARDY. He wasn't here. General LYNDE. I was not here yesterday. Mr. HÉBERT. You were not here. Secretary MORRIS. I talked to this, Mr. Chairman. Mr. HÉBERT. I thought it would be somebody else. Did you testify to that, Mr. Morris? Secretary MORRIS. I did indeed, sir. Mr. HÉBERT. That is how we are going to get along. I asked you a simple question to clear the record up and you answered it. If we continue in that vein, we will get along fine. Mr. GAVIN. I am asking the question whether the present Secretary of the Army reached a decision and approved the closing of this base. Secretary MORRIS. I can answer from personal knowledge that he did, sir, with respect Mr. GAVIN. He did? Secretary MORRIS. Yes, sir. Mr. HARDY. He made the decision? Secretary MORRIS. On all items in the Army list, correct, sir. Mr. HARDY. At least he signed the decision. And he took the responsibility for the decision. Secretary MORRIS. Correct, sir. Mr. HARDY. Whether or not he had any real good understanding of what he was doing. Mr. HÉBERT. Have you gentlemen any further questions? Mr. LATTA. Yes, Mr. Chairman. General, are you familiar-and I presume you are-with the physical location of Erie and the surrounding territory? General LYNDE. Yes, sir. Mr, LATTA. I notice here that you have marked on page 8 of your statement that there isn't any potential solid propellent missiles at Erie. Upon what did you base that conclusion?" General LYNDE. The real estate is restricted there, sir. They do not have at Erie sufficient space to receive these large missiles that are now in development. Mr. LATTA. How much space do you need, General? General LYNDE. For the receiving, about 4,000 acres. Mr. LATTA. And the reason for that is probably the possibility of one of these bombs exploding or this missile exploding. General LYNDE. That is correct, sir. Mr. LATTA. Is that correct? General LYNDE. It is what we call quantity distance. Mr. LATTA. In arriving at this decision, have you taken into consideration that to the north of Erie is Lake Erie, all out there for miles and miles? General LYNDE. Yes, sir. Mr. LATTA. You did? And what bearing did that have on your decision? General LYNDE. Mr. Latta, that is an area that in order to even maintain security while we are firing there, we have got to patrol. Mr. LATTA. We understand that. But you got miles out there, not only acres you said 4,000 acres. But you have miles out there. General LYNDE. You are right. Mr. LATTA. So that argument doesn't prevail here. General LYNDE. We operate our guard boats out there during a time schedule that has been arranged with the local community so as to Mr. LATTA. I am sorry, gentlemen, we are getting off the subject. I am familiar with the firing out there, that you got to have these patrol boats and so forth. Now I am getting back to my question. You said that you used 4,000 acres in determining whether or not there is potential for solid propellent missile bases in these areas. My question was whether or not you took in the physical location of Erie, on the shores of Lake Erie-where you have miles out there, and not only acres, but you have much more than 4,000 acres there, out to the north, from Erie Ordnance Depot. Now my question is whether or not you took that into consideration when you made this decision that there was no potential there, at Erie? General LYNDE. No, sir. Mr. LATTA. Well, don't you think you should have, General? Isn't it much safer to have miles of open space out there, than just 4,000 acres? General LYNDE. Mr. Latta, I don't consider that open space. I am well aware, as are you, of the pressures that are brought on us by the community to limit our firings to certain hours, the necessity for patrolling that area, and so on. If Mr. LATTA. I care nothing about the pressures, and neither do you, General. They don't affect this thing one iota. You would fire out into that lake regardless of the pressures being brought to bear. I know about the commercial fishermen yelling to high heaven, that you have interfered with their fishing. In fact, one of the largest fisheries in the area has just shut down, on July 1, due to that firing. You don't care one iota about those pressures and neither do I, when the national defense is at stake. Now then we come back to the question. Not firing out there for miles into that lake, as you have been doing, in testing out there at Erie Ordnance Depot. But we come back to the question of 4,000 acres that you have used as a criterion, if you please, in establishing the fact that these other five depots are potential areas for using, or a depot for solid propellent missiles. And you have admitted, General, that you didn't take that into consideration, and my question now is why didn't you? General LYNDE. As I have answered previously, I did not consider it clear area. Mr. LATTA. Well, now, look, General, when you are firing out into Lake Erie, you shut off that area for miles don't you? General LYNDE. For-yes, sir. Mr. LATTA. All right. Could you tell for the record how many acres, square acres, there are in a mile? You don't have to answer that question. But certainly if you would shut off just a few miles there, you would answer this question about 4,000 acres. But you are out there for miles shutting that off, and certainly the people in Congressman Ashley's district and in my district would be perfectly willing to shut off those few miles out there in Lake Erie, just as you are doing now for firing out into that lake. 75318-61-11 Now, then, would you do this? Would you reconsider this matter, General, in view of this information that apparently you didn't take into consideration? General LYNDE. I assure you, Mr. Latta, that if and when the time comes up to consider the matter of advance type missiles at Erie, we will consider it. Mr. LATTA. I want to see it on this chart, though. This is the thing that you fellows down there are going to be looking at, in the immediate and foreseeable future. You are going to be looking at this chart and you are going to go down that line, and it doesn't say anything about Lake Erie on this chart. It doesn't say anything on this chart that there is a potential at Erie Ordnance Depot for this type missile. There isn't anything there. But I want to see it in print, so that the other fellows who sit in that witness chair and the other fellows down at the Pentagon will know what went on here this afternoon. That is what I would like to see. And all I am asking for is a fair shake. We have taken it on the chin for years up there at Rossford. Your record will reflect it. We probably had 4,000 or 5,000 people up there at Rossford, and you kept cutting us down and cutting us down, and in the interest of national defense we took it sitting down. We are taking it sitting down again. in this case when you phase us completely out of Rossford. But I think it is high time that we stand up and say to the Department of Defense, "It is time that you reexamine this potential at Erie," because the same area is affected. Don't you think that is a fair shake? General LYNDE. Mr. Latta, we will make a memo for the record of your comments and put it in the file. Mr. LATTA. No, no, General, not my comments. I want to state the facts as to whether or not that potential exists at Erie. And I want it shown up here on page 8. If that potential is there, I want it here. I think it is only fair to the people of northern Ohio. General LYNDE. I would like to remind you that there also are a number of physical facilities that are required to make an adequate ammunition receiving and work area. Mr. LATTA. What is lacking at Erie? Mr. HÉBERT. I think, gentlemen, we are getting off. Erie is not before the committee. I have allowed the discussion to go along. Mr. ASHLEY. I have one further question. Mr. HÉBERT. Erie is not before the committee. I think we know pretty much now. We are talking about Rossford. Mr. LATTA. If the chairman will yield for just a comment on that? They are in the same area and as has been pointed out here before. there were supposed to have been some of the missions at Rossford transferred to Erie. And we found out in Congressman Ashley's interrogation of the general, that only six people are to be transferred from Rossford to Erie. And we don't think that is much of a transfer, and if there is a potential here at Erie to do this same type work-and these people now at Erie have been trained in missile work, haven't they, General? They have been doing that? General LYNDE. Yes, sir. Mr. LATTA. For several years, only with a different type of propellant. |