So, three out of the four measurements, it doesn't qualify for. Benicia is in the middle of the San Francisco Bay area, with about a million and a half people available for personnel.

The reason as an illustration of that-Benicia was selected by the Army, not anybody else, as the pilot depot for automatic data processing, was because they knew they could get the right type of trained personnel to handle it. And it is today.

Benicia has the responsibility for ordnance test calibration for all the area west of the Mississippi. Why? Because it can get the right kind of skilled personnel.

Let me give you one example of what has happened just since this announcement: In the last month, the month of June, Benicia has lost 100 out of the 2,350 that were there when this announcement came out. Benicia has lost 100 of its most skilled employees; not the people that can't get work anywhere else, but the most skilled employees. Because they won't go. The real skilled employees, the people who have a choice, who have other jobs available to them, are already leaving because they are not going out in the middle of a sandstorm area in Utah.

Now, the Army is quoted, and they said in one of their statements and I just want to quote it: They said that there is a dry climate and low maintenance expense at Tooele. But I would like to read to you-again not any statement I made, but a GAO report in 1956. Here is what it said, and this was on Tooele; page 2:

Hundreds of jeeps and trucks have been held in open storage exposed to the elements, including 56 inches of snow during February 1955.

Benicia, I might call in contrast, is in an area where there is never any snow. There is no freezing problems, no snow problems. And I would like to quote the next, on page 1 of the same thing:

Valuable surplus property has been stored in the open, exposed to the elements, including 791⁄2 inches of snow in an 8-month period.

There is another quote from the GAO report-not me. Here is another quote, on page 4:

Hundreds of jeeps and trucks have been held in open storage exposed to the elements, including the 56 inches of snow during February 1955.

And another quote on page 5:

Industrial machinery which costs

and it gives the quotation—

more than $76,000, have been in open storage since 1954.

The City of Tooele, Utah, official records show that precipitation in the area from July 1954 to March 1955 was 11.43 inches, including 7911⁄2 inches of snow.

Now, Mr. Chairman, I would like to just pass around to your committee a few pictures there, in order to show the snow on all the material and equipment, and everything else there. And you will also have a chance to see this is a desert, isolated location.

I will give you a further example of the problem. At Benicia, as there are in many of the depots, there are quite a number of Negro personnel. They have already contacted some of the Negro personnel up at Tooele. There are only 25 to 30, or 35 up there. They haven't been able to get housing in Tooele. Practically all the Negro person

nel have to go 35 miles, both ways, to Salt Lake City for housing. And yet at Benicia, where perhaps 20 percent of the personnel are Negro, they are going to be faced, if they go up there, with an area that doesn't have proper housing open and available to them, with only alternative of traveling 70 miles round trip per day.

Now, it seems to me, Mr. Chairman, this is a real serious matter. And no matter what I have heard here, I believe that the basic decision was budgetary, and not military. And I certainly hope, Mr. Chairman, that this decision will be reviewed very carefully by this committee. Because I think the interests of the defense of this country are involved when the Army closes the only two shipping points, ordnance depots, on the Pacific coast and moves the supplies, all the equipment, 900 miles inland, where the needs are on the coast and out in the Pacific.

Mr. HÉBERT. Are you through?

Mr. BALDWIN. That is my statement.

Mr. HÉBERT. General, would you care to reply?
General LYNDE. Yes, sir; I would.

I agree with Mr. Baldwin that the current performance record supply west of Benicia is an excellent one-a brilliant one.

However, I must recall 1953, when I had the responsibility for the depot support of the Korean operations in the closing days of that action over there, including stock control in Korea.

Mr. NORBLAD. Including what?

General LYNDE. Stock control in Korea.

We were receiving 16 percent of the line items requisitioned on time in support of active combat operations from the same depot, which was then the port support depot, 16 percent.

We were getting 14 percent in Japan. This within the prescribed order and shipping time.

Now I agree with the performance that we now have at Benicia. And I repeat that it is brilliant. But I contend that it is a result of the system. The system improved when General Magruder came back to this country and lined up the depots and the technical services. And he said, "You will do 80 percent on time, or I will have the Inspector General on you."

We are currenly doing 90 percent, and the Benicia is doing it.
I contend that we developed the system and not Benicia.

Mr. BALDWIN. I don't care where the system was developed. The facts are that Benicia is handling more than any other similar depot in the country.

General LYNDE. It is doing a brilliant job.

As far as labor goes, there has been a tremendous increase in industry in the Salt Lake area. As far as being a center of industry, the area of Tooele was seriously considered by the Ordnance Corps Board as a possible location for an ordnance proving ground, because it was centrally located with respect to western industry.

Mr. NORBLAD. You say that you felt Utah is centrally located as far as western industry is concerned?

General LYNDE. Tooele was actively considered by the Ordnance Corps Board as a possible site for a proving ground because it was centrally located with respect to western industry.

Mr. NORBLAD. I have lived in the West all my life, and that is news to me. Go ahead.

General LYNDE. ADPS-automatic data processing systems. Benicia was selected early for the installation of the 305. It followed by several months, however, the installation of the parallel system at Anniston. I don't think it was a first. It was a pilot in that area. And they have done very well, because of the attention of the current commander to that particular operation.

Calibration was established there about 2 years ago. I don't agree that the progress has been anything more than normal.

Mr. BALDWIN. But nevertheless, it is the center for the whole west of the Mississippi area for calibration, is it not?

General LYNDE. I have an equal facility-I mean an equal capability at Pueblo, and a better facility.

Mr. BALDWIN. But not at Tooele.

General LYNDE. NO.

As far as the elements go, we hope to be able to store our vehicles indoors.

I yesterday saw DUKW's and LVT's, that is, landing vehicle, tracked, that have been in storage at Tooele since the end of World War II, as well as a number of large shells that have been there. And the absence of rust and deterioration was surprising. Better than I have noticed in any depot with the exception of Navajo at Flagstaff, Ariz.

Mr. BALDWIN. General, I would like to point out that I wasn't giving my own opinion. I was recording the GAO report in 1956 about deterioration out in the open.

General LYNDE. Nevertheless, the fact remains, even though there may have been snow, it hasn't rusted the vehicles and they are in excellent condition. And to find DUKW's that are of World War II vintage with sound hulls is quite a surprise.

Mr. BALDWIN. I do want to call attention that GAO differs with you.

General LYNDE. Yes, sir.

With regard to the Negro problem, I will agree that it exists. How

ever

Mr. HÉBERT. That is amazing, General. I thought we only had that problem in the South.

General LYNDE. No, sir. [Laughter.]

Mr. HÉBERT. I am glad to know it is around the country, too.
General LYNDE. There are a few colored employees at Tooele.
Mr. NORBLAD. How big a community is Tooele ?

General LYNDE. Tooele is, I think, about 8,000.

Mr. GAVIN. How many employees at Benicia?
Mr. BALDWIN. 2,350.

Mr. GAVIN. Where do you expect to put these people out there, in a town of a population of 8,000? How are they going to absorb them?

General LYNDE. There are housing developments in the area. And Salt Lake City——

Mr. BALDWIN. 35 miles away.

General LYNDE. That is right. But not a difficult commuting distance.

I might say that we do have Lanham Act and Wherry housing on the post. They are in poor condition, principally because people will

not occupy them. They prefer to go into Salt Lake City and com

mute.

Mr. BALDWIN. And who are they available to, Lanham Act and Wherry housing?

General LYNDE. Employees.

Mr. KITCHIN. Negro employees?
General LYNDE. Certainly.

Mr. KITCHIN. Why are they not being utilized by the 126 or 128 Negro employees at Tooele now?

General LYNDE. I saw one Negro family in one set of Wherry. He is a military man. But there is one Negro family in it.

Mr. BALDWIN. A military man. Well, that is not what we are talking about. We are talking about civilians.

General LYNDE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALDWIN. About 20 percent of the Benicia personnel are Negroes.

General LYNDE. That community, like many others in the West, has had had a Mexican problem for some time.

Mr. NORBLAD. For my information, what direction from Salt Lake is this located? North, south, east, or west of Salt Lake City? General LYNDE. Southwest.

Mr. NORBLAD. Southwest. All right.

Mr. KITCHIN. Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the general one question about the inventories that he said had diminished over the period of years now, sufficiently to take care of this consolidation at Tooele and at Sierra.

In view of the GAO report in 1956, do you still have the open storage problem on the vehicles and units of machinery at Tooele at the present time, even though the inventory had been reduced?

General LYNDE. We have I saw yesterday these DUWK's which are currently being processed for shipment. They have been in open storage. And there is a number of landing vehicles, tracked, in open storage.

Mr. KITCHIN. How about jeeps.

General LYNDE. No, sir.

Mr. KITCHIN. Now I understand you to say that some of this equipment had been there since 1954?

General LYNDE. I don't recall saying 1954. But I would be willing to assume that a lot of it came back after Korea and probably has been there.

Mr. KITCHIN. Maybe I misunderstood. I thought you said, with reference to the condition of no rust and so forth, the storage had been there open, although snow was upon it, since 1954.

General LYNDE. I would suspect that the landing vehicle tracked, and the DUWK's, have been a longer time, sir.

Mr. NORBLAD. GAO reported it.

Mr. KITCHIN. Now with the consolidation and moving, if you do move the ordnance depot from Benicia to Tooele, will there be added difficulties with reference to outdoor storage for this type of inventory-machinery?

General LYNDE. I don't believe so, sir. We will probably have a much smaller vehicle inventory.

Mr. NORBLAD. Have what, please?

General LYNDE. A much smaller vehicle inventory. And we are succeeding pretty well in getting our vehicles under cover. That is our objective. And I hope that any vehicles that we have there will be under cover.

And

There are about, I believe, 150 cans-those are the large gasoline cans that have dehumidifying units and are established there. those are being utilized. I think that some of the ground level warehouses will be available for vehicles. They are currently being used for vehicle storage.

Mr. KITCHIN. Now, with reference to the type construction available at Tooele as compared with the Benicia structure, which is of a permanent nature according to Mr. Baldwin, have you taken into consideration the cost of processing your warehousing and your other building requirements to bring it up to at least a pseudopermanent status to take care of the new inventory? Have you calculated the cost on that?

General LYNDE. I think we have got in here the cost for modifying the buildings up to an adequate status.

Benicia has four very splendid warehouses that were built during Korea, and one of the few administration buildings that we have in the Ordnance Corps. Unfortunately, though, it has a lot of land that we can't erect good shop buildings on because of its proximity to the water and the soft nature of the soil.

Mr. BALDWIN. But there is plenty of space, however there is some land along the water, but there is sufficient space to erect proper buildings. In fact, the Army had preliminary plans for another major building, that were already drawn up.

General LYNDE. Now, we currently are supporting Nike-Ajax, a liquid-fueled missile. And the fuel can be withdrawn from that missile before it is shipped. And so that can be received in an ordinary industrial area without hazard. We are converting over to NikeHercules rapidly, as you know.

That is why we say that we must have this space afforded only by an operating ammunition area, so that we can receive these missiles in there and can then take out certain modules that can be sent out to the industrial area.

Because

The rest of it must be worked inside the ammunition area. these in effect are larger projectiles than we have ever handled and we can't accept those at Benicia or Mount Rainier.

Mr. BALDWIN. Well, let me call this to the attention of the committee, Mr. Chairman. There is less than 20 percent of the people at Benicia working on explosives. The others are all these other kinds of employees: supplies, jeeps, tanks, weapons carriers, and all the innumerable, thousands of line items and supplies that are involved in the operation of any Army unit.

Now, Sierra, which is presently the backup location for Benicia, has all the area for this kind of weapons renovation. So there is no reason whatsoever that Benicia couldn't continue to function, with Sierra as the backup, for those kinds of explosives that might require additional space. This is the base upon which the Army functioned all during Korea, as a matter of fact. And they had 7,000 employees working at Benicia during the Korean mobilization period, which they had available to them because of the concentration of personnel in the bay area, which would be extremely difficult at Tooele.