Mr. COOPER of Wisconsin. You issued them, did you not?

Professor REED. Yes; I would sign the official letter.

Mr. COOPER of Wisconsin. You would sign the official letter. That is what I wanted to get at. You had 30 or 40 people, and you consulted about things? Professor REED. About everything.

Mr. COOPER of Wisconsin. And you had a little governing committee?
Professor REED. Yes, sir.

Mr. COOPER of Wisconsin. And the committee instructed you to write and sign orders?

Professor REED. Yes.

Mr. COOPER of Wisconsin. So that you were really what you would call the head man?

Professor REED. Not for the first month, when I had an older colleague, who was also a deputy commissioner. He broke down under the work and left me there, and I continued the work.

Mr. COOPER of Wisconsin. What cities did you visit besides Jerusalem? Professor REED. I had a pretty good chance to see many. For example, I went to Gaza twice, and I saw that city very thoroughly, because we ran a fine workshop there; and we brought up the superintendent of the workshop and helped to start him in a cooperative industry that is still running in Jerusalem. Mr. COOPER of Wisconsin. What industry is that?

Professor REED. Weaving; and it is called now, I think, the Jerusalem Looms. Mr. COOPER of Wisconsin. About how many employees did you have? Professor REED. I can not tell you how many they have now, but I can tell you that we had about six large wooden looms, and they wove that cloth which the natives wear.

Mr. COOPER of Wisconsin. Did you establish any other industry?

Professor REED. No, sir; we established no other industry, because our work was purely relief work.

At Gaza it was not an industry. We him at Jerusalem.

Mr. COOPER of Wisconsin. In that one town you established one industry. Did you establish any industry in any other town? Professor REED. I see your point. brought the man up from Gaza and left At Jerusalem this weaving work is going on; it was taken on by the men themselves. But if you mean did the Red Cross when they were there start other industries that kept on going

Mr. COOPER of Wisconsin. Yes; that is it.

Professor REED (continuing). No; we did not, because it was relief work Mr. COOPER of Wisconsin. It was relief work that occupied your time? Professor REED. Yes; very much of my time.

Mr. COOPER of Wisconsin. And you say you came back here?

Professor REED. Yes.

Mr. COOPER of Wisconsin. And read literature, etc., and your mind was changed?

Professor REED. My mind was changed over there when I had to see the military precautions taken. You could not avoid it. It was right there before your eyes.

Mr. COOPER of Wisconsin. There were Mohammedans and Christians and Jews and a great variety of creeds and inherited animosities and hatreds and differences of sentiment?

Professor REED. Yes.

Mr. COOPER of Wisconsin. So that it was inevitable, in a situation like that, that somebody would have to maintain order and have power to enforce it? Professor REED. Yes; you have got to maintain order; but the force of troops was utterly out of proportion for any ordinary necessity.

Mr. COOPER of Wisconsin. Did the fact of the presence of those troops and the fact that the populace wanted them to come there lead you to change your opinion on this question of Zionism?

Professor REED. The fact that they had to have a large military force showed me that the people did not want it. Then I thought I would study the question and see why they did not want it. I believe they did when I went there. I believed, as the Zionists said, that they were not opposed by any section of the people.

Mr. COOPER of Wisconsin. You did not have much time to read there?
Professor REED. No, sir.

Mr. COOPER of Wisconsin. You did your reading here?

Professor REED. Yes.

Mr. COOPER of Wisconsin. It was your reading that converted you, finally? Professor REED. It was the sight of the large force that was necessary for the work to restore order in Palestine. Then, I wanted to see why that happened.

Mr. COOPER of Wisconsin. Let me see if I understand you. You went over an ardent Zionist?

Professor REED. Yes.

Mr. COOPER of Wisconsin. And you were familiar with the history of Zion? Professor REED. Yes.

Mr. COOPER of Wisconsin. And you were busy with those duties all the time? Professor REED. Yes; very busy.

Mr. COOPER of Wisconsin. And you visited only those few places?

Professor REED. No; I went all over.

Mr. COOPER of Wisconsin. You did not visit any of the agricultural colonies? Professor REED. I went through them, but I had no work there. I was not a tourist, and I could only go where we had work.

Mr. COOPER of Wisconsin. I have not heard anything in your statement to explain the conversion from an ardent Zionist, as you were when you went there, and spent three and a half months' time, busy with the duties that you have enumerated-your conversion to an ardent anti-Zionist.

Mr. KENNEDY. Did you change your mind while you were still there or after you came back?

Professor REED. No; I could not help it. I changed when I was there. For example

Mr. KENNEDY. Then your mind was changed by your observations? Professor REED. Yes; but I did not know what those people had until I began to study the case, and I saw really what the Zionists were trying to do.

Mr. COOPER of Wisconsin. You said that you changed your mind there, but the only reason you have given as to why you changed your mind over there was this, the great number of troops necessary to preserve order.

Professor REED. Yes.

Mr. COOPER of Wisconsin. I do not see why that should in any way tend to change your opinion on Zionism.

Professor REED. You could not help being influenced. As I said, I refused to attend any meetings, but you could not help running into the Zionist question. I do not know how I can explain it to you, but in that country you cannot help but hear what the people say. The whole point was that I made no study of Zionism. It was not my duty. I went all over Palestine, to many places.

Mr. KENNEDY. Is there any great number of Americans who hold property interests over there?

Professor REED. There are several Mission stations. For example, there is a boys' high school and a girls' high school at Ram Allah, the home of one of these gentlemen.

Mr. KENNEDY. I mean, property interests in an industrial way?
Professor REED. The Standard Oil had an agent there.

Mr. KENNEDY. Did you inquire into the facts where these Americans happened to be,. concerning their circumstances?

Professor REED. I heard something of them, but I could not make an inquiry.

Mr. KENNEDY. What was the view they expressed, if you care to state it? Professor REED. I dislike to do it, because it will seem as though I were trying to bring before this committee what I saw over there. I have not alluded to that. I want to base my arguments on Zionist documents.

(Thereupon, at 4.45 o'clock p. m., the committee adjourned until to-morrow, Friday, April 21, 1922, at 10.30 o'clock a. m.)

COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS,
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,
Friday, April 21, 1922.

The committee met at 10.30 o'clock, Hon. Stephen G. Porter (chairman) presiding.

Mr. LINTHICUM. Mr. Chairman, when the hearings began, the question was asked of one of the witnesses when he was last in Palestine, and, as he had not been there for two years, I suggested that Doctor Lazaron and Doctor Birck

head, of Baltimore, be invited to come before the committee, as they had just returned from Palestine and might be able to enlighten the committee upon conditions there at this time and upon other matters in which we are interested in connection with this resolution. If you have no objection, I will be glad if you will hear at this time Doctor Lazaron, because he has an appointment in Baltimore and wants to return as soon as possible.

STATEMENT OF RABBI MORRIS S. LAZARON, OF THE BALTIMORE HEBREW CONGREGATION, BALTIMORE, MD.

Mr. SMITH. Doctor, please tell us about the conditions over there now, and whether you are in favor of or against this resolution.

Doctor LAZARON. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the committee, last summer I spent three weeks in Palestine. When this matter was first called to my attention it was through the introduction of the Lodge resolution, which embodies the terminology of the Balfour declaration. Later I saw the Fish resolution, and while, naturally, every Jew appreciates the motives that prompted the gentleman to introduce this resolution, I must confess to a feeling of pleasure when I came this morning and found that in the House Mr. Fish had introduced a resolution similar to the Lodge resolution.

Mr. LINTHICUM. What is the number of that resolution?

Doctor LAZARON. It is House Joint Resolution No. 308. I confess to pleasure at the introduction of that resolution, because it contains a certain point which I am sure will meet the feelings of hundreds of thousands of Jews in this country. The Balfour declaration, as embodied in the joint resolution, contains this language:

"That nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."

Although I am not speaking authoritatively for any group or organization of Jews-I am only voicing my own opinion-I feel that it is necessary, if any resolution be reported out that it have embodied in it the thought contained in that sentence, "That nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."

Now, so far as my attitude toward the resolution itself is concerned, I see no reason why the United States, as a friendly Government, should not voice its confirmation of what has already been done by Great Britain. I was in Palestine last summer, and while I am not affiliated with the Zionist organization, I am completely in favor of the rebuilding of Palestine. While in Jerusalem I had a long conversation with Sir Herbert Samuel. Sir Herbert Samuel, as you know, is a Jew who has been appointed high commissioner for Palestine, representing Great Britain.

There was a great deal of criticism of Sir Herbert Samuel, not only on the part of the Jews but on the part of the Arab population; the Jews believing that Sir Herbert Samuel did not lean sufficiently far toward them, and the Arabs believing that he was entirely too partial to the Jews. Consequently he was criticized for whatever point of view he enunciated or whatever policy he maintained. It was my impression that Sir Herbert Samuel was leaning fur- · ther toward the Arabs in order not to be criticized as being pro-Jewish.

There is keen feeling in both groups. In that connection, let me tell you of a conversation I had with Miss Henrietta Szohl, the daughter of a former rabbi in Baltimore. In discussing this very question with her I said, “What if Sir Herbert Samuel did what you have advocated, or pursued a pro-Jewish policy in Palestine? Suppose that were done and ill-feeling should be stirred up among the Arabs, and we should have massacre after massacre?" This splendid and unselfish woman who has given most of her life to the Palestine cause said in reply, "Well, the worst that could happen would be that many of us would be killed, but we are willing to be killed for Palestine." That simply shows the intensity of the Jewish feeling in the matter.

On the other hand, the Arab population is just as excited and just as insistent. For instance, we were down in Hebron, the site of the Cave of Machpelah, which contains the tomb of the patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and their wives. I did feel a natural family curiosity about wanting to visit Machpelah. I saw the British governor and asked his permission to go in. He asked if I were a Christian, and I told him, of course, that I was a Jew. He said, “I am very sorry, Rabbi Lazaron, but if the Arab sheikhs who have

charge should find out you are a Jew I would not be responsible for your life." Not wishing to be gathered so summarily to my fathers, I did not press my claim for permission to enter.

The CHAIRMAN. I gather from this testimony that prior to the Balfour declaration the Jews and Arabs lived together peacefully, and that there was never any disorder, or not to any great extent. The Turkish Government apparently maintained there a force of only about 500 soldiers, but it is said that since the Balfour declaration, which the Arabs take as an effort to destroy their limited sovereignty, England has kept an army of several thousand men in Palestine. Since that time these massacres have occurred, although you would hardly be justified in calling them that, because they are entirely too small to be so designated; but there does exist this ill feeling that you speak of. Now, in view of these facts, are we justified in believing that the Balfour declaration was, as one of the witnesses described it, the exciting cause of the trouble between the Arabs and the Jews?

Doctor LAZARON. The Balfour declaration was one of the exciting causes, and another one of the exciting causes was very probably the misinterpretation of the Balfour declaration, which was either wittingly or unwittingly made by many Jewish leaders. The impression seemed to have gone throughout the Jewish world that England would give Palestine outright to the Jewish people; but, according to the terms of the Balfour declaration, such a thing was never contemplated for a moment.

The CHAIRMAN. Perhaps you can clear this matter up for me. This resolution reads, "It being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine." Now, suppose the Balfour declaration is carried into effect and the Jewish people in large numbers migrate to Palestine. In the course of time they would be in the majority, and the moment they were in the majority would they not interfere with the existing non-Jewish population?

Doctor LAZARON. I do not think so. According to the terms of the Balfour declaration, it provides that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities.

The CHAIRMAN. The point I have in mind is that the moment the Jews secure a majority in Palestine, then the civil rights of the existing non-Jewish population might be upset or disturbed. That their civil rights would be disturbed would be the natural result, would it not?

Doctor LAZARON. I would say that it is a very distant possibility, Mr. Chairman. Of course, I can not speak for what the future may bring.

The CHAIRMAN. If the Jews were in the majority in Palestine, they would do just as people have done in every other country in the world where they were in the majority, would they not? That has been the history of the world, has it not, and would they not elect their own people to office, and would they not dominate and control the government?

Mr. BROWNE. The people of the United States have not done that, because when people of other nationalities come in here and become citizens they have just as good a chance to secure office as anyone else, and sometimes a better chance?

Mr. SABATH. You do not know of any tendency on the part of the Jewish people who are there that would make you believe that they contemplate any step later on that would prejudice the rights of other people, do you?

Doctor LAZARON. I can only say to you, gentlemen, in answer to that, that the Jew has been subjected to oppression and tyranny, and he knows what it means to drink the dregs of the cup of suffering. I have sufficient confidence in the sense of justice of my people to believe that, were they to establish this Palestine Commonwealth the same just administration would obtain then as obtains now. In other words, under the British administration there are three groups represented in the government of the country, and there is a self-governing autonomy for each particular group, the Arabs representing one group, the Jews one group, and the orthodox Christians one group. There is no reason to believe that even should the Jew ultimately achieve a majority the rights of any group would be impaired. There is every reason to believe they would not.

The CHAIRMAN. I did not have in mind that the Jews would commit any acte of injustice, but I had in mind that the Jews would exercise the right which they would have, and which no one would dispute if they were in a majority in Palestine. If they were in the majority they would have a perfect right

to control the government in so far as they were permitted to do so under the British mandate.

Mr. MOORES. They would have the same right to control there that the Negroes have to control in Mississippi.

Doctor LAZARON. The Jew in Europe is struggling for his existence. You must remember that the greatest feeling for Palestine comes not from America. We Jews who have been blessed with the stability and the security of America do not desire to go to Palestine; but what we want, gentlemen, is that there may be one place in the world-in Palestine, amid the old historical associations of our people-where those who care to go there may be given an opportunity to lay the foundation of a new life. The Jew in central Europe has been and is living under a régime where national rights or group rights have been recognized as essential to liberty. He has been deprived of these rights and therefore of liberty.

Doctor PHILIPSON. You said the Jews in central Europe, but you meant the Jews in southeastern Europe, did you not?

Doctor LAZARON. Yes; the Jew who goes from southeastern Europe to Palestime will be going out of that sort of environment. In other words, he knows what it means to recognize group rights. The American citizen may not know what the recognition of group rights means, but the Jews going to Palestine know. It is a part of their political background. They have come to recognize it and accept it as a theory of government. Therefore, whatever government may be established in Palestine and in that, it seems to me, we are looking into the very far distant future-the Jew will apply the lesson they have learned and will recognize the rights and privileges of the existing non-Jewish population in that land.

Mr. LINTHICUM. Can you tell us about the conditions you found when you visited some of the Jewish communities in Palestine? As I understand it, when you were there you visited some of the Jewish communities.

Doctor LAZARON. You will remember that for years and years our Arab friends have been in that land. There was a very friendly feeling between the Arab and the Jew. Nevertheless, in most instances it was paid for. However, the present situation in Palestine as between the Arab and the Jew is changing. The intelligent Jewish leaders have not hesitated to declare the necessity that Palestine, when it is developed, shall be developed for the benefit of the whole population. The Arabs had done very little up to the time when the Jews went there, and when anyone goes to Palestine with an open mind he can pick out the Jewish colonies from those of the Arabs. He can see from the trees, from the houses, from the red tile roofs of the Jewish villages what Jewish energy and labor and sacrifice have accomplished. The best leadership among the Jewish people to-day is convinced that no steps should be taken that would prejudice the rights of the Arabs.

It would be wrong to adopt an aggressive anti-Arab policy, and under British suzerainty such a thing could be taken. Only within the last 10 days we have heard that one of the colonies, Petoch Tikvah, or the Gate of Hope Colony, has recently entered into a treaty arrangement with the surrounding Arab tribes looking toward a rapprochement between them, and many of the Arab sheiks in the southern district of Beersheba have emphatically denied their antagonistic attitude toward the Jew. There are many Arabs in Palestine who are in favor of the Jews coming in and building up the land.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you visit those colonies while you were over there?
Doctor LAZARON. I visited a number of Jewish colonies.

The CHAIRMAN, How many are there in Palestine?

Doctor LAZARON. Before the war there 43 Jewish colonies, but during the war there was some destruction and some were eliminated.

The CHAIRMAN. When was the first Jewish colony organized in Palestine? Doctor LAZARON. Some 30 years or more ago, by Lord Rothschild. I have not that definite information.

The CHAIRMAN. But before the war there were about 43?

Doctor LAZARON. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. How many are there now?

Mr. LIPSKY. Seventy-two.

The CHAIRMAN. Can you give us an approximate estimate of the number of inhabitants of each colony?

Doctor LAZARON. No, sir; I can not.

Mr. LIPSKY. We can provide the statistics. The large colonies have about 3.000 inhabitants, and the number goes down to colonies with about 50 in