into if they want to go there and have a chance to work. Every other country stops them, and this great Republic, land of the free and all that sort of thing, refuses to say one word. Now then, it is not getting into the League of Nations, nor it is doing a very dangerous nor a very bad thing if the United States should simply say that what it thinks is a righteous movement it hopes will proceed to consummation. It is not a bad thing for a man to say to another man (if he might be a burglar and the burglar is about to do a good thing), to ask him to go ahead and do it. It does not affect the good man, but this Nation should say to England and the world, Please proceed. You are about to organize a new country to give a persecuted people a refuge in the world, and a place where each persecuted people can go and be safe." Do not interfere with the rights of the Arabs. Let them stay there, rigidly protect their property, civil and religious rights.

66

Doctor PHILIPSON. If you can do that and dissociate the Zionist program, God speed it. But as long as you associate it with a nationalist declaration and the Balfour program, it ties it up with the balance of the world.

Mr. MOORE. I want to get as much light as possible, because I want to do as right as it is possible as far as I am concerned. Mr. Cooper seemed to go on the theory that it is either Palestine for the Jews or no other place. Is it not a fact that there are no prohibitions against the Jews in South America or South Africa, both of which are great countries and hold out great promises to people who offer to settle there? And therefore is it the only alternative, as suggested by my friend Mr. Cooper, as he understands it, that they are to go to Palestine or stay where they are at present and suffer persecution?

Mr. SABATH. Pardon me. There is no prohibition in this country against the Jews. There are restrictions.

Mr. COOPER. Well, I will amend my question. Do you know of any law against the Jew in South America or South Africa?

Doctor PHILIPSON. I do not.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you know of any other place where there are restrictions?

Doctor PHILIPSON. I do not now. No one knows conditions in eastern Europe now.

The CHAIRMAN. In England are there any restrictions?

Doctor PHILIPSON. They have alien restrictions. I do not know whether the restrictions hold now. They did a number of years ago, but it is not against the Jews particularly.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Sabath, you are on the Immigration Committee. Tell us is it not a fact that the restrictions all over the world affect the Jews and Gentiles alike?

Mr. SABATH. I do not know of any nation that has adopted any legislation directly against the Jew. Therefore I offer the suggestion that it might not go out that we had adopted special legislation in this country against the Jew. We have not. There are some certain restrictions, the same being such as are applied to all the world alike.

I desire to ask the doctor a question. Is it not a fact that nearly the entire immigration to Palestine, on the part of the Jew, is for sentiment?

Doctor PHILIPSON. Absolutely.

Mr. SABATH. More than political?

Doctor PHILIPSON. Not altogether. It is sentiment with a great many people who are there, but with the leaders it is political. I do not want to say some things in this company that I might say.

Mr. FISH. You anticipate the Zionists are going to be the leaders?
Doctor PHILIPSON. No; but they are there now.

Mr. FISH. I know, but the leaders of the Zionist movement are not the politicians?

Doctor PHILIPSON. Well, I will not speak it. I am not a prophet, or a son of a prophet.

Mr. SABATH. I have in my hand a yearbook of the American Jews. They give the number of the Jewish population as 15,744,000. You stated it was between nine and ten million.

Doctor PHILIPSON. I said I thought it was more.

Mr. SABATH. When you revise your remarks you can correct that.

Doctor PHILIPSON. Very well.

Mr. MOORES. You have, as you say, lived a very active life. Can you recall that three times the President of the United States, of his own motion, with

out action of Congress, has interfered by appealing to the Czar of Russia to stop persecutions against Jews in that country within the last 40 years? Doctor PHILIPSON. Why should not that have been done as humanity? But the Russians considered it great impertinence.

Mr. MOORES. It has been done.

Mr. FISH. I think it was done by Congress also.

Doctor PHILIPSON. That was simply this: It was because they discriminated against American citizens. It was not because the discrimination was against the Jews, but because it was against the Jew as an American citizen. That was why Congress took that action.

Mr. SABATH. It is a fact also that President Wilson has done everything in his power to force the small nations in adopting their constitutions to insert a proviso guaranteeing the personal and the religious liberties to the minorities. Doctor PHILIPSON. Exactly. The status quo in eastern Europe is that they set apart Jews as a national group. Yes; not only Jews but other peoples also. Mr. SABATH. And would not this resolution merely approve of that same policy, guaranteeing that right of religious freedom to the Jew in Palestine? Would that not approve the policy adopted originally by President Wilson? Doctor PHILIPSON. No; I do not think it would do so. I am so opposed to the whole matter of minority groups anywhere that I would not like to see that in any country. Of course, it has been the policy for centuries and centuries, as is the case in eastern Europe; you can not change things quickly.

Mr. COCKRAN. Do you wish to say that you would not like to see minority rights protected?

Doctor PHILIPSON. What do you mean by that? Mr. COCKRAN. I do not know what you mean. Doctor PHILIPSON. I mean separate groups. Of course, minority rights of Jews or Catholics, or any other religious communions who may be minorities in a country, must be protected in their religious rights.

Mr. COCKRAN. I want to ask you some questions about the exclusion of the Jews from nearly all the countries of Europe. Whether they actually have exclusive laws or not, is it not a fact that they are actually expelled from most of those countries, and when they are expelled they are never allowed to reenter them? Is that not true-the actual conditions to-day?

Doctor PHILIPSON. I do not think so.

Mr. COCKRAN. You think a group of Jews expelled from-
Doctor PHILIPSON (interposing). You mean as a group?

Mr. COCKRAN. No. I am speaking of a cargo driven out of Rumania into another country. Do you think they would be let in again?

Dr. PHILIPSON. I do not know.

Mr. COOPER. Do you think it would be any solace to those people driven out that way, threatened with murder, and their friends and relatives murdered, to tell them that they could go to South Africa, or a little farther, when they have not got a cent and nobody will help them? It is a good deal nearer to go to Palestine and no one will help them go there, but they know if they get into these other countries, which are all colonies of France and England and other countries (many of them with imperialistic notions, although they claim to be republics)? Do you think they would be content to go off into those countries, whose friends in Europe persecute them, in preference to a country right near them?

Doctor PHILIPSON. Well, that brings on the discussion of a whole lot of things of that kind which I appreciate, but to me, as I said from the beginning, this is a matter of principle. I hope I have made my position clear.

Mr. FISH. We have another witness. I want to find out in the first place whether the other side has any more witnesses. It will probably not be necessary to put on the man who desires to speak. What we would like to get is a discussion before the committee by the committee as to this question. We to-day have a rather large number. Some are downstairs. Mr. Cockran is leaving to-day or to-morrow. I suppose he would like to be recorded on the matter. I would also like to know whether or not votes by proxy are allowed.

The CHAIRMAN. No; except by unanimous consent of the committee. I would first like to inqu're whether there is anybody else here who wishes to be heard here in opposition?

(No one answered.)

The question of voting to-day, I do not think, should be taken up. I would like very much, so far as I am concerned, to have the printed record before me before I determine what to do.

into if they want to go there and have a chance to work. Every other country stops them, and this great Republic, land of the free and all that sort of thing, refuses to say one word. Now then, it is not getting into the League of Nations, nor it is doing a very dangerous nor a very bad thing if the United States should simply say that what it thinks is a righteous movement it hopes will proceed to consummation. It is not a bad thing for a man to say to another man (if he might be a burglar and the burglar is about to do a good thing), to ask him to go ahead and do it. It does not affect the good man, but this Nation should say to England and the world, "Please proceed. You are about to organize a new country to give a persecuted people a refuge in the world, and a place where each persecuted people can go and be safe.” Do not interfere with the rights of the Arabs. Let them stay there, rigidly protect their property, civil and religious rights.

Doctor PHILIPSON. If you can do that and dissociate the Zionist program, God speed it. But as long as you associate it with a nationalist declaration and the Balfour program, it ties it up with the balance of the world.

Mr. MOORE. I want to get as much light as possible, because I want to do as right as it is possible as far as I am concerned. Mr. Cooper seemed to go on the theory that it is either Palestine for the Jews or no other place. Is it not a fact that there are no prohibitions against the Jews in South America or South Africa, both of which are great countries and hold out great promises to people who offer to settle there? And therefore is it the only alternative, as suggested by my friend Mr. Cooper, as he understands it, that they are to go to Palestine or stay where they are at present and suffer persecution?

Mr. SABATH. Pardon me. There is no prohibition in this country against the Jews. There are restrictions.

Mr. COOPER. Well, I will amend my question. Do you know of any law against the Jew in South America or South Africa?

Doctor PHILIPSON. I do not.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you know of any other place where there are restrictions?

Doctor PHILIPSON. I do not now. No one knows conditions in eastern Europe now.

The CHAIRMAN. In England are there any restrictions?

Doctor PHILIPSON. They have alien restrictions. I do not know whether the restrictions hold now. They did a number of years ago, but it is not against the Jews particularly.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Sabath, you are on the Immigration Committee. Tell us is it not a fact that the restrictions all over the world affect the Jews and Gentiles alike?

Mr. SABATH. I do not know of any nation that has adopted any legislation directly against the Jew. Therefore I offer the suggestion that it might not go out that we had adopted special legislation in this country against the Jew. We have not. There are some certain restrictions, the same being such as are applied to all the world alike.

I desire to ask the doctor a question. Is it not a fact that nearly the entire immigration to Palestine, on the part of the Jew, is for sentiment?

Doctor PHILIPSON. Absolutely.

Mr. SABATH. More than political?

Doctor PHILIPSON. Not altogether. It is sentiment with a great many people who are there, but with the leaders it is political. I do not want to say some things in this company that I might say.

Mr. FISH. You anticipate the Zionists are going to be the leaders?
Doctor PHILIPSON. No; but they are there now.

Mr. FISH. I know, but the leaders of the Zionist movement are not the politicians?

Doctor PHILIPSON. Well, I will not speak it. I am not a prophet, or a son of a prophet.

Mr. SABATH. I have in my hand a yearbook of the American Jews. They give the number of the Jewish population as 15,744,000. You stated it was

between nine and ten million.

Doctor PHILIPSON. I said I thought it was more.

Mr. SABATH. When you revise your remarks you can correct that.

Doctor PHILIPSON. Very well.

Mr. MOORES. You have, as you say, lived a very active life. Can you recall that three times the President of the United States, of his own motion, with

out action of Congress, has interfered by appealing to the Czar of Russia to stop persecutions against Jews in that country within the last 40 years? Doctor PHILIPSON. Why should not that have been done as humanity? But the Russians considered it great impertinence.

Mr. MOORES. It has been done.

Mr. FISH. I think it was done by Congress also.

Doctor PHILIPSON. That was simply this: It was because they discriminated against American citizens. It was not because the discrimination was against the Jews, but because it was against the Jew as an American citizen. That was why Congress took that action.

Mr. SABATH. It is a fact also that President Wilson has done everything in his power to force the small nations in adopting their constitutions to insert a proviso guaranteeing the personal and the religious liberties to the minorities. Doctor PHILIPSON. Exactly. The status quo in eastern Europe is that they set apart Jews as a national group. Yes; not only Jews but other peoples also. Mr. SABATH. And would not this resolution merely approve of that same policy, guaranteeing that right of religious freedom to the Jew in Palestine? Would that not approve the policy adopted originally by President Wilson?

Doctor PHILIPSON. No; I do not think it would do so. I am so opposed to the whole matter of minority groups anywhere that I would not like to see that in any country. Of course, it has been the policy for centuries and centuries, as is the case in eastern Europe; you can not change things quickly.

Mr. COCKRAN. Do you wish to say that you would not like to see minority rights protected?

Doctor PHILIPSON. What do you mean by that?

Mr. COCKRAN. I do not know what you mean.

Doctor PHILIPSON. I mean separate groups. Of course, minority rights of Jews or Catholics, or any other religious communions who may be minorities in a country, must be protected in their religious rights.

Mr. COCKRAN. I want to ask you some questions about the exclusion of the Jews from nearly all the countries of Europe. Whether they actually have exclusive laws or not, is it not a fact that they are actually expelled from most of those countries, and when they are expelled they are never allowed to reenter them? Is that not true-the actual conditions to-day?

Doctor PHILIPSON. I do not think so.

Mr. COCKRAN. You think a group of Jews expelled from-
Doctor PHILIPSON (interposing). You mean as a group?

Mr. COCKRAN. No. I am speaking of a cargo driven out of Rumania into another country. Do you think they would be let in again?

Dr. PHILIPSON. I do not know.

Mr. COOPER. Do you think it would be any solace to those people driven out that way, threatened with murder, and their friends and relatives murdered, to tell them that they could go to South Africa, or a little farther, when they have not got a cent and nobody will help them? It is a good deal nearer to go to Palestine and no one will help them go there, but they know if they get into these other countries, which are all colonies of France and England and other countries (many of them with imperialistic notions, although they claim to be republics)? Do you think they would be content to go off into those countries, whose friends in Europe persecute them, in preference to a country right near them?

Doctor PHILIPSON. Well, that brings on the discussion of a whole lot of things of that kind which I appreciate, but to me, as I said from the beginning, this is a matter of principle. I hope I have made my position clear.

Mr. FISH. We have another witness. I want to find out in the first place whether the other side has any more witnesses. It will probably not be necessary to put on the man who desires to speak. What we would like to get is a discussion before the committee by the committee as to this question. We to-day have a rather large number. Some are downstairs. Mr. Cockran is leaving to-day or to-morrow. I suppose he would like to be recorded on the matter. I would also like to know whether or not votes by proxy are allowed.

The CHAIRMAN. No; except by unanimous consent of the committee. I would first like to inquire whether there is anybody else here who wishes to be heard here in opposition?

(No one answered.)

The question of voting to-day, I do not think, should be taken up. I would like very much, so far as I am concerned, to have the printed record before me before I determine what to do.

into if they want to go there and have a chance to work. Every other country stops them, and this great Republic, land of the free and all that sort of thing. refuses to say one word. Now then, it is not getting into the League of Nations, nor it is doing a very dangerous nor a very bad thing if the United States should simply say that what it thinks is a righteous movement it hopes will proceed to consummation. It is not a bad thing for a man to say to another man (if he might be a burglar and the burglar is about to do a good thing), to ask him to go ahead and do it. It does not affect the good man, but this Nation should say to England and the world, Please proceed. You are about to organize a new country to give a persecuted people a refuge in the world, and a place where each persecuted people can go and be safe." Do not interfere with the rights of the Arabs. Let them stay there, rigidly protect their property, civil and religious rights.

66

Doctor PHILIPSON. If you can do that and dissociate the Zionist program, God speed it. But as long as you associate it with a nationalist declaration and the Balfour program, it ties it up with the balance of the world.

Mr. MOORE. I want to get as much light as possible, because I want to do as right as it is possible as far as I am concerned. Mr. Cooper seemed to go on the theory that it is either Palestine for the Jews or no other place. Is it not a fact that there are no prohibitions against the Jews in South America or South Africa, both of which are great countries and hold out great promises to people who offer to settle there? And therefore is it the only alternative, as suggested by my friend Mr. Cooper, as he understands it, that they are to go to Palestine or stay where they are at present and suffer persecution?

Mr. SABATH. Pardon me. There is no prohibition in this country against the Jews. There are restrictions.

Mr. COOPER. Well, I will amend my question. Do you know of any law against the Jew in South America or South Africa?

Doctor PHILIPSON. I do not.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you know of any other place where there are restrictions?

Doctor PHILIPSON. I do not now. No one knows conditions in eastern Europe now.

The CHAIRMAN. In England are there any restrictions?

Doctor PHILIPSON. They have alien restrictions. I do not know whether the restrictions hold now. They did a number of years ago, but it is not against the Jews particularly.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Sabath, you are on the Immigration Committee. Tell us is it not a fact that the restrictions all over the world affect the Jews and Gentiles alike?

Mr. SABATH. I do not know of any nation that has adopted any legislation directly against the Jew. Therefore I offer the suggestion that it might not go out that we had adopted special legislation in this country against the Jew. We have not. There are some certain restrictions, the same being such as are applied to all the world alike.

I desire to ask the doctor a question. Is it not a fact that nearly the entire immigration to Palestine, on the part of the Jew, is for sentiment?

Doctor PHILIPSON. Absolutely.

Mr. SABATH. More than political?

Doctor PHILIPSON. Not altogether. It is sentiment with a great many people who are there, but with the leaders it is political. I do not want to say some things in this company that I might say.

Mr. FISH. You anticipate the Zionists are going to be the leaders?
Doctor PHILIPSON. No; but they are there now.

Mr. FISH. I know, but the leaders of the Zionist movement are not the politicians?

Doctor PHILIPSON. Well, I will not speak it. I am not a prophet, or a son of a prophet.

Mr. SABATH. I have in my hand a yearbook of the American Jews. They give the number of the Jewish population as 15,744.000. You stated it was between nine and ten million.

Doctor PHILIPSON. I said I thought it was more.

Mr. SABATH. When you revise your remarks you can correct that.

Doctor PHILIPSON. Very well.

Mr. MOORES. You have, as you say, lived a very active life. Can you recall that three times the President of the United States, of his own motion, with