wanted was to be able to show that 100 percent of the counties at a certain level, a thousand population, whatever it was, that you got them all, and there was a big news release. "Now we have them all," or, "We have a certain percentage of them." I think that is a waste of public funds. I think it is the wrong concept of government, and I think they would be a little bit more patient, that if they really found people with 10 children or elderly people who needed food, they would come knocking down your door and say, "How come you don't include us in ?" I think they would come to you.

I just mention that because I think that is one of the problems that we run into talking about in terms of dollars, when they say, "Why in the world do they need more money when apparently they can't get rid of the stuff that they have without forcing it on folks that don't want it?”

FEDERAL-STATE-LOCAL COOPERATION

Mr. LEONARD. We approach this not from the standpoint of trying to embarrass any county. Our programs are based on the concept of cooperative local, State, Federal governments. When we began this effort we had roughly 330 to 340 counties in this lowest income group without a food program. We went to the Governors, we went to the county commissioners, and we said, "If you will work with us, we would be willing to help pay part of the administrative costs." When you go talk to them, they don't oppose these programs. I don't think anybody really does. They say: "Well, we can't afford them." So we say: "All right, we will help you pay the cost of those programs.'

Out of the 330 to 340 counties, all but 48 said: "We want to do this. We are glad you want to help. We will work with you."

Senator MUNDT. Why didn't you settle for that instead of saying, "All right, you knuckleheads in the other 48 counties, you are going to take it whether you want it or not"?

Mr. LEONARD. I think it finally comes down to a responsibility that we have to assume. If there are people who need food and food is available, there is no shortage of it, then the people themselves ought to have the opportunity to say whether they need it or not. It shouldn't be an argument between State and local governments between the Federal and State governments. We made the decision.

Senator MUNDT. I suppose there is no use to prolong this any further. It depends on what your concept is of government, whether you believe the local people should have something to say or not.

Senator HOLLAND. I had come to the conclusion after reading this testimony that you folks up in South Dakota and North Dakota, and elsewhere in the country, except the South, didn't have any poor people, because I notice that the testimony always speaks of poor families in the South. Is there any reason for that?

Senator MUNDT. We have some.

Mr. LEONARD. I didn't

Senator HOLLAND. You have, in your statement.
Mr. LEONARD. Oh, in the testimony.

Senator HOLLAND. Yes, you mentioned it twice, and it is all right. We have some poor people, though I think Florida didn't have any food stamp programs up until just a short while ago. Do we have any now?

Mr. LEONARD. Not yet, sir.

Serator HOLLAND. So I wanted the record to show that not all the poor people are down our way. Have you added any counties to your program there?

Mr. LEONARD. Yes, sir

Senator HOLLAND. What counties are they?

Mr. LEONARD. I can't recall offhand; Miami, Dade County, and a number of the counties in the northern part of the State have been talking about asking for a formal designation.

Senator HOLLAND. You finally persuaded them to take the food stamp program?

Mr. LEONARD. Well, we didn't have to persuade them. Dade County has always wanted to come in.

Senator HOLLAND. My information was you people were in there working very actively with them to try to get them to accept the food stamp program.

Mr. LEONARD. You know, Dade County has been on a commodity program and they have been wanting to convert, I think, to food stamps. There was some problem with the State law, and a number of the counties in the northern part of the State also are on a commodity programs and they too have been interested in the food stamps. But it is true we do try to explain the programs so that everybody understands them thoroughly.

Senator HOLLAND. I understood you had some evangelists down there, but apparently they haven't made very much progress.

Senator MUNDT. How many of these thousand people, now 1,120 people, that you have are in this business of evangelism, trying to tell people in the local communities that they should do something that they think they shouldn't do?

Mr. LEONARD. Well, we don't try to break them down into evangelistic troops to do this.

Senator MUNDT. You must have a job analysis. You must know what your people are doing. You must be able to tell us how many of these super-duper salesmen you have.

Mr. LEONARD. We try to make sure that all of our employees are able to explain the program thoroughly.

Senator MUNDT. You have not got them all out there selling it, have you?

Mr. LEONARD. No, sir; they are all out there working on their primary jobs-to see that these programs are operated effectively and efficiently.

Senator MUNDT. Yes, but when they go to an area that doesn't have a program, then they have to go to an assignment of some kind from somebody. Can you give us a guesstimate if you can't give us the exact job analysis?

Mr. LEONARD. Well, Mr. Davis is just pointing out that in the food stamp program, particularly, we have always had more requests than we have been able to fill. So to that extent, it hasn't been necessary to take the evangelist trail.

Senator HOLLAND. You haven't had any requests from Florida up to quite recent months and now you tell me that you have some requests. You are going into Florida in those counties?

Mr. LEONARD. We hope to.

Senator HOLLAND. Now, seriously, what you are trying to do is to assure that the purchasing power of a needy family is stepped up under this food stamp program to where they will have enough food stamps, partly financed out of their own funds and partly by

Federal gift, to meet the minimum requirements of a full low-cost diet, is that it?

Mr. LEONARD. Yes, sir.

Senator HOLLAND. I think that is a worthy objective. I don't see anything wrong with that at all. That is all right. But I just wondered why you picked out here a couple of times, a family in the South, because we haven't felt, at least in Florida, that we are the poorest people in the country or that we are inclined to that kind of preferment. We are not asking for any preferment.

Mr. LEONARD. The next time I will include one family from the North and one from the South.

Senator HOLLAND. All right.

Senator MUNDT. If they charge the local people down in Dade County like they charged the visiting conventioners, I can see where they would run out of money.

Senator HOLLAND. There are some ridiculous features in this program, but I think it is a very fine program, and I think it is trying to bring up the level of food consumption, nutritional consumption of people, to a level that will assure people, especially children, the chance for full growth and full strength. I think we all approve of that.

USE OF STAMPS

Senator MUNDT. Yes, we have all been supporting it. Let me ask you this. When you get your food stamps and you go to a market, can you buy anything in the marketplace for food stamps, or is there a certain type of thing you can buy and certain type you can't?

Mr. LEONARD. You cannot buy nonfood items and you cannot buy most imported foods. In other words, it has to be all food. We do run into problems because of this. Today many families buy their soap and other nonfood household essentials in the grocery stores, in supermarkets. It is very difficult for a family with stamps in a grocery store to be restricted. I think this reflects part of the problem in trying to explain food prices; when people go into a supermarket, they buy not only food, but non food items. Then they wonder why their grocery bill is so high.

Senator MUNDT. Who controls that? The fellow at the cashier's desk says, "This is something you can buy with scrip and this is something you can't buy with scrip"?

Mr. LEONARD. Yes, sir. This is one of the major responsibilities of our local officers in charge. They work with the stores to make certain that people at the checkout counters are aware of what foods are restricted and which can be bought with stamps. We also maintain a fairly tight surveillance program to make sure that nobody is cheating. Senator MUNDT. I have no further questions.

LIST OF FOOD STAMP AREAS

Senator HOLLAND. I have one more question. I want you to furnish for the record a list of the areas by States and counties that you now serve and the ones that you want to serve in the year 1969.

Mr. LEONARD. Yes, sir.

Senator HOLLAND. Thank you very much, Mr. Leonard.
Mr. LEONARD. Thank you.

(The information follows:)

FOOD STAMP PROJECTS IN OPERATION-SEPTEMBER 1968

(TOTAL NUMBER OF PROJECTS: 1,179 IN 42 STATES AND DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA)

Aug. 1, 1968

Apr. 2, 1963

Dec. 22, 1966

Apr. 1, 1968

Dec. 20, 1966

Mar. 1, 1967

Apr. 2, 1968

Apr.

1, 1968

Nov. 16, 1966

Dec. 22, 1966

July 11, 1968

Aug. 5, 1968

Dec. 1, 1965

May 10, 1967

July 10, 1968

May 3, 1966

Nov. 5, 1965

Apr. 5, 1967

FOOD STAMP PROJECTS IN OPERATION-SEPTEMBER 1968-Continued

Sedgwick County----- Apr. 5, 1968

Oconee County-----. Aug. 15, 1968

See footnotes at end of table, p. 45.