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Mr. LAMB. Well, of course, as Mr. Maverick has explained to you, we have no control of the materials handled by the Surplus Property Board.

Mr. TABER. But the Board has made statements repeatedly that it is holding back stuff that is in short supply at the present time, and that is interfering very seriously with the movement of these goods that the civilian population needs now, and that the farmers need right now in the war effort.

Mr. LAMB. I know of no plan, Mr. Taber, where they are holding it back by designed program.

Mr. Taber. They are telling that, any way. Mr. MAVERICK. Let me answer, please. As far as we are concerned, we are aggressively, as we are enjoined to do by Congress, representing small business. We are aggressively putting up to the Surplus Property Board that there should be an equitable and wide distribution as soon as possible of everything in short supply. Recently there was a meeting of the Business Advisory Council of the Department of Commerce, where Governor Hurley, of the Surplus Property Board, made a talk. It was off the record, but I do not think it is anything off the record for me to say, that the policy which he announced was what I just said, wide distribution of the things in short supply as soon as possible. I do not want to defend any other agency except to say that I think the Surplus Property Board is beginning to move, operate, and get things done. They have labored under a great many drawbacks from the beginning.

Mr. TABER. And illusions, maybe.

Mr. MAVERICK. They may originally have had illusions, but they are gone now.

Mr. TABER. They still had them within a couple of weeks, anyway,

Mr. MAVERICK. Well, Mr. Taber, I very respectfully want to say this: In my personal opinion, they are beginning to work much faster now. You can't take a bunch of men and throw them into a gigantic, complicated, and confusing job which has not had any administrator for several months, and expect them to do a perfect job in handling it. Any man who has been in a job for a year

does a better job than one who has been in there for only 3 or 4 months. Senator Gillette and those other two gentlemen had a hard time when it first stated. It is a monumental problem; give them a little time.

HEARINGS HELD BEFORE BUDGET BUREAU

Mr. WICGLESWORTH. You told Mr. Woodrum that you had your Budget hearings in December, was it?

Mr. MAVERICK. Yes, sir.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. That is the first time the Budget asked you to appear, I take it!

Mr. MAVERICK. The first time for this year.
Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. How long did the hearings last?

Mr. MAVERICK. I will ask Mr. Denit to answer that. I was in France at the time the hearings were held.

Mr. Dexit. The hearings were held for 2 days, but Budget representatives came over to the Corporation and conducted personal interviews with various offices and bureau heads and had on-the-spot reviews of the operations.

.05 The procedure involving acquisition of property by priority purchase through methods of financing other than cash purchases are under consideration and will be published upon adoption. Section 9. Exceptions to sections 7 and 8.

.01 Any deviation from the methods of operation as described in sections 7 and 8 must have the prior approval of the Chief, Surplus Property Division. Section 10. Directions superseded.

.01 This procedure rescinds and supersedes field procedure No. 3 and supplement No. 1 thereof.

Mr. LAMB. The Surplus Property Board is now drafting regulations in conformity with the powers under the law in which they define the preferences of small business and the priorities which we have in the act, the Surplus Property Act, in which we determine the need of the small business interests throughout the country. At the disposal agency we will have a representative to relate it to the available supply of the material in surplus, and exercise the preference which the Board gives to small business, veterans, agricultural, and nonprofit institutions. After those needs are met, the balance is cleared in public sale. So, small business interests in the country will get a preference in the items that they need.

As said yesterday, there are many items in the consumers' goods field which may be something that could be used in a small hardware store, but that would not be packaged in a small enough unit to supply to individual stores. That problem is being studied now.

Mr. Ludlow. Where would you say small business comes in in the list of priorities?

Mr. LAMB. Small business comes in as one of the preference categories: veterans, small businessmen, agriculture, and nonprofit institutions.

That would be the hospitals, colleges, and others. I am talking about the preferences, not priority. The government units get the same priority at the State, county, and local level as at the Federal level. We, of course, have a priority there where we purchase for the need of the small user and receive from him a certified check with which to pay for the material.

QUANTITIES OF AVAILABLE SURPLUS MATERIAL

Mr. LUDLOW. What information do you have as to the quantities available? Take machine tools, for instance; is there a large supply of surplus machine tools available?

Mr. LAMB. It is estimated that the supply of machine tools will run 400,000 to 500,000 individual items, of which there may be 100,000 special items which may not be applicable to peacetime economy, and the surplus will reach probably 150,000, and the remaining 350,00 or the balance will be for sale. We are making a survey of the need: of small business as it relates to the use of those tools by classes Machine tools, though, you might say, are still frozen by the military service-not being sold for industrial use except by certification for work relating to war contracts.

Mr. TABER. Are you doing anything to break down the program of the Surplus Property Board to kind of hang on to everything until after it gets into production, so that the things that are i immediate demand by the public can be supplied ?

Mr. Lamb. Well, of course, as Mr. Maverick has explained to you, we have no control of the materials handled by the Surplus Property Board.

Mr. Taber. But the Board has made statements repeatedly that it is holding back stuff that is in short supply at the present time, and that is interfering very seriously with the movement of these goods that the civilian population needs now, and that the farmers need right now in the war effort.

Mr. Lamb. I know of no plan, Mr. Taber, where they are holding it back by designed program.

Mr. TABER. They are telling that, any way. Mr. MAVERICK. Let me answer, please. As far as we are concerned, We are aggressively, as we are enjoined to do by Congress, representing small business. We are aggressively putting up to the Surplus Property Board that there should be an equitable and wide distribution as soon as possible of everything in short supply. Recently there was a meeting of the Business Advisory Council of the Department of Commerce, where Governor Hurley, of the Surplus Property Board, made a talk. It was off the record, but I do not think it is anything off the record for me to say, that the policy which lae announced was what I just said, wide distribution of the things in short supply as soon as possible. I do not want to defend any ther agency except to say that I think the Surplus Property Board beginning to move, operate, and get things done. They have labored under a great many drawbacks from the beginning.

Mr. TABER. And illusions, maybe.

Mr. MAVERICK. They may originally have had illusions, but they are gone now.

Mr. Taber. They still had them within a couple of weeks, anyway.

Mr. MAVERICK. Well, Mr. Taber, I very respectfully want to say this: In my personal opinion, they are beginning to work much faster now. You can't take a bunch of men and throw them into a gigantic, complicated, and confusing job which has not had any

Iministrator for several months, and expect them to do a perfect nb in handling it. Any man who has been in a job for a year does a better job than one who has been in there for only 3 or 4 months. Senator Gillette and those other two gentlemen had a hard time when : first stated. It is a monumental problem; give them a little

HEARINGS HELD BEFORE BUDGET BUREAU

Mr. WICOLESWORTH. You told Mr. Woodrum that you had your Bud- hearings in December, was it? Mr. MAVERICK. Yes, sir.

Mr. WIGGLE-WORTH. That is the first time the Budget asked you to "Tuprar, I take it?

MAVERICK. The first time for this year. Mr. W'ICLESWORTH. How long did the hearings last? Mr. MAVERICK. I will ask Mr. Denit to answer that. I was in France if the time the hearings were held.

Mr. DENIT. The hearings were held for 2 days, but Budget repretatives came over to the Corporation and conducted personal inter55 with various offices and bureau heads and had on-the-spot views of the operations.

PENALTY MAIL

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. I notice in your justifications that you are asking for 3,333,260 pieces of penalty mail at $15 a thousand for the fiscal year 1946, which would seem to indicate about 11,000 pieces of penalty mail a day. I wish you would give us a little statement on that for the record, showing what you have spent in terms of penalty mail for each fiscal year since you were set up, and for the fiscal year that we are now considering.

Mr. DENIT. As to the fiscal year 1944, I will give you the best estimate we have. The Corporation at that time had no control over any penalty mail at all, but for the fiscal year 1945 I can give you a very accurate estimate.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. Just put it in the record when you revise your remarks.

Mr. DENIT. Yes, sir.
(The statement referred to is as follows:)

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Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. Now, I notice, under "Publicity," that you reported to Mr. Taber, I think, that you had been spending about $67,940 a year for publicity and public relations work, and I notice here you want to jack that up to $116,290 for the fiscal year 1946.

I would like to get a statement by fiscal years for the record in terms of publicity and public relations work.

Mr. Denit. Do you want that in terms of personnel or in terms of specific projects of publicity ?

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. You might give us the personnel for each fiscal year and the over-all expenditure for each fiscal year.

Mr. DENIT. All right.
(The statement referred to is as follows:)

Office of Information obligations

Estimate,

1946

Estimate,

1945

Actual, 1944

Personal services.
Other obligations.

Total.

$116, 290

50, 174

$85, 422
13, 884

166, 464

99, 306

35, 712

Mr. MAVERICK. I would like to say something about this matter of public relations and publicity at this point, because the words “public relations” and “publicity" are often misunderstood just like the words “politics” and “politician.” When a man uses the word “politics” or politician” he usually means it in a contemptuous sense. I do not mean that Mr. Wigglesworth means it that way, but I want to take advantage, if I may, of that word and tell you why this work is particularly relevant to our work and quite necessary.

When the Surplus Property Act was created we were ordered by law enacted by Congress “to disseminate information.” I will quote it at length later on. Let me emphasize—it gave us the specific duty to disseminate information. It gave us the specific duty to give information to little business and to get information. There are other requirements. The work that we do is not in any sense publicity or public-relations work as usually understood; that is, the attempt to promote any individual or this organization.

I believe it is absolutely essential that the work of the Smaller War Plants Corporation be known to a large body of people, and everything that Mr. Taber asked the other day about surplus property is what they have got to know about it.

The act says--the law, what Congress wrote and wants it says "wide distribution and wide publicity.”

I want to say, gentlemen, without bragging about it, and I hope I can say this with a reasonable amount of modesty, that from my knowledge as a businessman and formerly as a Congressman, and now as a Government employee, the amount that we are spending on this is apparently very small from a comparative viewpoint. Also to a large extent because I have been a Congressman, it is easy for me to get this information before the public. Gentlemen, I justify our information service in the most aggressive manner as being absolutely essential from a governmental and business viewpoint, and also simply a requirement which you, yourselves, the Congress made. And it's a good thing. Mr. Ludlow. You are speaking about this information item now? Mr. MAVERICK. Yes, sir. Mr. LUDLOW. The increase requested from $67,000 to $116,000? Mr. MAVERICK. Yes, sir; that is right.

Let me put this quotation about the dissemination of information in the record :

The Smaller War Plants Corporation is hereby directed (1) to disseminate Information among small business concerns with respect to interim financing, termination settlements, removal and storage of termination inventories pursuant v the provisions of this Act and the regulations of the Director; and

(2) To assist small-business concerns in connection with the securing of interim financing and the preparation of applications for such interim financ12. the effecting of termination settlements, and the removal and storage of termination inventories, and to make interim loans and guaranties in order

assure that small-business concerns receive fair and equitable treatment from prime contractors and intermediate subcontractors in connection with the termination of war contracts.

With reference to the proposition of the dissemination of information, contract terminations, and the like, our men, on behalf of the Army and Navy, or at their request, call together a meeting of businessmen. That includes big businessmen if they want to come; and our information men call them together. Then they explain

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