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The ones that are in good condition we are asking and we have received up to the $75 cost value; but they run all the way down to $30 for the class 4 that need repairs.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. Are those the only types of boats you have disposed of?

Mr. Kirsch. Oh, no.
Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. How large boats have you disposed of to date!

Mr. KIRSCH. In this category the largest boat we have disposed of is the 60-foot knock-down barge, which costs about $3,600 apiece new and we have disposed of them for $1,995.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. How old are they?
Mr. KIRSCH. They were not old.
Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. How many years?

Mr. KIRSCH. I should imagine those were built within the last? years.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. You got only 40 percent on them?
Mr. Kirsch. No; better than 50 percent.
Mr. DIRKSEN. Were these steel boats?
Mr. Kirsch. No, they are wooden barges.
Mr. DIRKSEN. Wooden?
Mr. Kirsch. Yes, they are wooden barges.
Mr. Dirksen. They use them mostly on the inland waterways?

Mr. KIRSCH. They were designed for use by military forces for the landing of supplies on shores in shallow water.

Mr. CANNON. Are there any further questions, gentlemen? Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. What about this other item in this break-down “Ships and maritime property, "that was disposed of? The property cost $4,227,000 and sold for $3,443,000, or roughly 81 percent of its original cost.

Mr. KIRSCH. Those are figures of some previous month.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. I am talking about the item "Ships and maritime property, Maritime Commission."

Mr. KIRSCH. If I may, I would like to read you all the classifications of the disposals that we have made to April 30, by items, and ther I can break that down as to percentages, if you wish.

We have disposed of boilers, winches, windlasses, capstans, small craft, ship equipment, maritime engines, spare parts, life floatnavigation instruments, miscellaneous wire end products, bells, and railway cars. The last is a special item, involving some railways cars that we purchased from the old Sixth Avenue Railway in New York which we had at a shipyard and later disposed of to the Southern Pacific Railway at 100 percent of what we paid the Sixth Avente Railway for them.

Those are the items we have disposed of. The total dispose! amounts to $6,091,210, as at April 30, 1945.

Mr. WIGGLES WORTH. Exclusive of the ships, of the small ships

Mr. KIRSCH. Yes; that includes the small craft but not the disposed of by the W. S. A. under Public, 305.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. This shows $10,877,000.

Mr. KIRSCH. That is a combination of items. I am afraid the figure you have is a combination of what has been disposed of by the War Shipping Administration, under Public, 305, plus surplus material disposed of by the Maritime Commission under the Surplus Property Act, Public, 457.


Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. That is $6,650,000?

Mr. Kirsch. I do not know what that figure is. I do not have it but I imagine what you have is the combination figure.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. I got $4,237,000 under various items.
Mr. Kirsch. What date is that?

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. This was furnished us this morning. The date is in March, I believe.

Mr. Kirsch. The figures I have been reading to you, Mr. Wigglesworth, are as of April 30.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. This is as of March 31.

Mr. McNAMARA. The difference is due to the distinction between the small vessels and ships. The small vessels are disposed of by the War Shipping Administration under Public Law 305, and not under the Surplus Property Act. There are no funds requested in this estimate for that function. That is another regular administrative function of the War Shipping Administration. The statistical tables, however, include disposals of this nature, even though no part of the requested consolidated fund will be used for the expenses of such disposals.

Mr. DIRKSEN. Mr. Kirsch, if I remember correctly, you said you anticipated about $200,000,000 worth of surplus property would be declared to you


year. Mr. Kirsch. In the fiscal year 1946.

Mr. DIRKSEN. What would be the most difficult item to sell in that category?

Mr. KIRSCH. All these items are marine equipment, and when ships are not being built in large numbers, it will be difficult to find uses for items such as anchor windlasses, propellers, and so forth, except over a comparatively long period of time.

Mr. DIRKSEN. So you anticipate that the percentage of recovery will go down very materially and you will have more difficulty finding a market?

Mr. KIRSCH. We anticipate that of the $200,000,000 declaration we will sell $100,000,000 in the fiscal year 1946, and that our recovery on that $100,000,000 worth of material will be down to about $40,000,000; we anticipate about 40 percent.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. You will get about $140,000,000 for the $200,000,000?

Mr. Kirsch. We will get about $40,000,000 for the $100,000,000.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. In other words, you are going to sell $100,000,000 worth of property and expect to get $40,000,000?

Mr. Kirsch. That is right.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. How much is it going to cost you to make that sale?

Mr. Kirsch. The material that was declared surplus-
Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. No; you have got it set up here at $3,500,000.

Mr. Kirsch. $3,500,000 for handling declarations in the amount of $200,000,000, which includes the disposal of $100,000,000 of that $200,000,000.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. You hope to net about $40,000,000?
Mr. KIRSCH. Yes.

Mr. WiGGLESWORTH. Have you any green sheets of the personnel for your part of the Surplus Property break-down?

Mr. KIRSCH. No; I do not.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. You have not?
Mr. WiggLESWORTH. They have never been prepared?
Mr. KIRSCH. They have never been prepared.

Mr. DIRKSEN. If and when some of this property is not exactly usable and salable and has to be broken up for scrap, what will be its commercial rating in the market? Will it be called scrap steel? There are half a dozen different ratings. Will it be called melting steel?

Mr. Kirsch. Scrap steel.
Mr. DIRKSEN. What is the rate of melting steel now?

Mr. KIRSCH. I suppose that you can get as much as $15 to $20 a ton for it now.

Mr. GORMAN. $13 a ton average would be closer.

Mr. Dirksen. The buyer will furnish the torch and cut it up himself?

Mr. GORMAN. Yes.



Mr. KIRSCH. I offer for the record the following statement which gives the background of the principal personnel handling the disposal of surplus property.


Date of birth: October 11, 1899.
Director, Contract Settlement and Surplus Materials Division, United States

Maritime Commission, $8,000. 1916-19: United States Naval Academy, bachelor of science degree. 1930–33: University of Southern California, master of science in public admin

istration degree. 1919-26: Commissioned officer, United States Navy. 1926–28: Examiner, civil service commission, city of Los Angeles, Calif. 1928–38: Efficiency engineer and deputy budget director, bureau of budget and

efficiency, city of Los Angeles, Calif. 1938–39: Adviser to Territorial Legislature and the city and county of Honolulu,

T. H., also lectures on public administration, University of Hawaii. 1939–41: General manager, civil service commission, city of Los Angeles, Calif. 1941-44: Chief Budget examiner and chief of estimates group, Bureau of the

Budget, Executive Office of the President. 1944–45: Special expert, Office of Commissioners, United States Maritime Com

mission. 1945: Director, Contract Settlement and Surplus Materials Division, United

States Maritime Commission,

ERNEST W. GORMAN Date of birth: August 19, 1902. Assistant to director, Contract Settlement and Surplus Materials Division, C'nited

States Maritime Commission, $6,500. 1919-21: Clerk in a fire-insurance company. 1921-24: Clerk, State of Connecticut. 1924–25: Seaman, deck and engine departments, various ships. 1925-26: Insurance agent, Equitable Insurance Co. 1926–36: Fleet storekeeper and engine foreman, United States Shipping Board 1936–42: Inventory checker and inventory supervisor, United States Maritime

Commission. 1942: Chief of inventory, Warehouse and Sales Section, United States Maritime


1942–44: Assistant director and assistant to director, Division of Purchase and

Sales and Procurement Division, Inventory Warehouse and Sales, respectively,

United States Maritime Commission. 1944-45: Special assistant to director Procurement Division, United States Mari

time Commission. 1945: Assistant to director, Contract Settlement and Surplus Materials Division,

United States Maritime Commission.

GEORGE H. McKEAN Date of birth: March 6, 1907. Chief of Materials Disposal Section, Contract Settlement and Surplus Materials

Division, United States Maritime Commission, $6,500. 1930: Lafayette College, bachelor of science degree. 1935: University of Pittsburgh, Law School, bachelor of laws degree. 1935-37: Business specialist and legal adviser to production distributor. 1937–40: Consultant and legal adviser, General Motors. 1941: Business manager, Chevrolet Motors. 1942: Inspector commodity liaison, Office of Price Administration and procure

ment specialist, Navy Department. 1942-44: Materials conservation specialist and chief of section, t'nited States

Maritime Commission. 1944–45: Coordinator and chief of section, Contract Settlement and Surplus

Materials Division, United States Maritime Commission.

Mr. CANNON. Are there any further questions of the Maritime Commission?

We thank you, gentlemen,

TUESDAY, MAY 22, 1945.





Mr. CANNON. Continuing our examination of the budget for the Surplus Property Board, we have checked over two of the disposal agencies, the Reconstruction Finance Corporation, and the United States Maritime Commission, and we have remaining the Department of Agriculture, the Department of the Interior, the Federal Works Agency, and the National Housing Agency.

We will take up first the Department of Agriculture. Mr. Meeker, what type of property will you handle in the disposition of surplus property?

Mr. MEEKER. As far as disposal is concerned, agricultural and forest land and surplus agricultural commodities and foods processed from agricultural commodities.

Mr. CANNON. And in what amounts by categories?

Mr. MEEKER. We have only estimates of the amounts. We do not have accurate information about the amount of food which will be surplus and will be declared for disposal.

Mr. Cannon. What effort have you made to secure an estimate of the amount? What steps have you taken, rather, in order to secure an estimate as to the approximate amount?

Mr. MEEKER. The problem has been discussed with the military and they, apparently, have considerable difficulty in determining the amounts that will be declared surplus. It depends on what their requirements are in Europe, and depends in part, upon the amount of food that is in storage here and in the pipe lines when VJ-day comes.

Mr. Cannon. On a rough estimate, then, you would say that you would have approximately what amount? What is the best estimate you could make as to the approximate amount in each category?

Mr. MEEKER. We have estimated $10,800,000 of food being declared surplus for the fiscal year 1946.

Mr. Cannon. That is over-all, or is that divided up as to various lines, and so forth?

Mr. MEEKER. That is food.
Mr. CANNON. That is for food, then?
Mr. MEEKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. CANNON. What part of that, if any, is your own, and what part will be transferred to you from other agencies?

Mr. MEEKER. That is our estimate of the quantity of food that will be declared surplus by other Government agencies, the Army, the Navy, the Maritime Commission, and other agencies that will have food that will be surplus to their needs during this period.

Mr. CANNON. Now, just how do you expect to handle it, what is your plan of organization, and what field offices will you have and what personnel?

Mr. MEEKER. I will ask Mr. Garman to explain that, Mr. Chairman, if I may.

Mr. Cannon. Yes, Mr. Garman.

Mr. GARMAN. What we have planned, Mr. Chairman, is to inte grate this disposal work with our other work in connection with the handling of food.

Mr. CANNON. You expect, then, to have no additional personnel; you will utilize the personnel you have?

Mr. GARMAN. No, sir; it will require additional personnel to do the disposal job. Our estimate, I think, is probably best illustrated by this chart. I have copies of it here that I could hand to the committee, if you wish, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. CANNON. Yes.

Mr. GARMAN. This first bar on this chart represents the $10,800.000 worth of food that Mr. Meeker indicated, as near as we can estimate. would be the amount we would have to dispose of during the fiscal year 1946.

The second bar represents the estimated proceeds that would be received from the sales of that food, $9,180,000.

The third bar represents the estimate which we made to the Surplus Property Board as to what it would take to do the job.

Mr. Cannon. The first item, Mr. Garman, the $10,800,000, is that the cost price, the price paid by the Government, or is that the amount you estimate to be the market price at the time of disposal!

Mr. GARMAN. That would be the declared value at the time it would be turned over to us, which, in most instances, would be the cost but in others it may be an estimate value approximating cost.

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