the Office of Legislative Affairs renders it unnecessary for each activity having an interest in a particular legislative program from sending its own observer. And Mr. Fay ends his letter by stating:

We have found this longstanding practice to be very beneficial and hope that it can be continued

and that he would be happy to provide us with any further information.

Mr. Fay, the Navy is, I am sure, acquainted with the fact that the Congress provides at Government expense a Congressional Record with everything that happens in the House of Representatives on a daily basis available the next morning. Why is it, therefore, necessary for the Wave officers to be there taking notes?

Mr. FAY. Mr. Congressman, I think what it does, not only for the Navy, but I think also for the Congress, is that it gets the information to us immediately. It also indicates the emphasis that maybe a congressional Member would place on a certain issue.

These Waves or Wacs, whoever it might be, are conscious of the interests of the Navy on the things where the Navy wants to be responsive to the Congress.

On a daily basis I have a sheet which comes to me which outlines all the pertinent issues as far as Navy interest that are dealt with during the day's hearings. I read those sheets every single morning. And if some action should come up, say responsive to something of interest to yourself, we can get this information back to you almost immediately.

We also know exactly from the way you expressed yourself just your real interest and maybe in just part of what you might have said during the day.

So historically I think this has not only been very beneficial to the Navy but has been of great benefit to the Congress. And I know on many occasions it has made us more responsive to the wishes of the Congress.

Mr. EDWARDS. Are dossiers prepared with teller votes and division votes?

Mr. FAY. No; what we get is just a brief résumé of what has happened on each particular topic and with, maybe, mention of the emphasis that the speaker gave to that particular topic.

I think it would be helpful, and I would be happy to supply for the record some of these news clips that we get.

Mr. EDWARDS. Do you know, Mr. Fay, why the Navy and the Army-you cannot answer for the Army I am sure, but why the Navy-would feel that they were able to violate the House rules and not anybody else?

Mr. FAY. Well, I came in a little late. I am pretty well down the road, Mr. Congressman. I know this has been a practice that has been going on for years.

What initiated it initially I am not sure.

Because it appears to be an accepted practice which pleases not only the Navy but the Congress, we have maintained its existence. As I stated in my letter, I hope we will be able to maintain this policy. If in your wisdom and the Congress wisdom they would like it terminated, it will be terminated immediately.

Mr. JOHANSEN. Will the gentleman yield?

Mr. EDWARDS. I will yield to Mr. Johansen.

Mr. JOHANSEN. Did I not understand the gentleman to say the Speaker has ordered it terminated?

Mr. EDWARDS. The Speaker, Mr. Johansen, has ordered notetaking terminated.

Mr. JOHANSEN. That is what I refer to-which is a clear violation of the rules of the House.

Mr. EDWARDS. That is right, sir.

Mr. FAY. The notetaking will be terminated.

Mr. EDWARDS. With regard to the report, Mr. Fay, I notice that in this legislative affairs personnel you have a grand total of 72 attached to legislative affairs, and you have no professional civilians assigned in this congressional work. Is there any particular reason why there are no civilians?

Mr. FAY. I do not think there is any particular reason why there are no civilians. I know the reason why there are Navy personnel in uniform.

We have a desire to be responsive to the needs of the Congress. Also we have a desire to inform the Congress of our needs. And since the military personnel have the major responsibility to the CNO and to the Secretary of the Navy, and it also is an educational factor for them to know what is going on, to know the operations and the relationship between the Congress and the Navy, this is, we feel, the best way to be responsive to the needs of the Congress and of the Navy.

Mr. EDWARDS. I have no further questions at this time, Mr. Chair

man.

Mr. JOHANSEN. Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the gentleman to yield further.

I would like to compliment the gentleman from California for bringing this violation of the rules to the attention of this committee and of the Speaker.

Mr. BECKWORTH. Thank you.

Mr. EDWARDS. Mr. Chairman, may I say one more word on this? Mr. BECKWORTH. Yes.

Mr. EDWARDS. Mr. Fay, I will not pretend that my concern is wholly with regard to manpower utilization, although I must say that I still have reservations as to whether or not, inasmuch as we spend hundreds of thousands of dollars a year to publish the Congressional Record, we should have a number of military personnel every day taking notes on the off-the-record activities of the Congressmen.

However, it is your privilege, you understand. These are public galleries. Any agency could say the same thing, could say that they must have people in the public gallery reporting on the items of interest to every agency, and there would be no room in the gallery for the public.

I appreciate very much your letter and your explanation today.

Speaking for the people in the House of Representatives that I have already talked to, it does create a question in their minds as to whether there is a question here as to the appropriate use of the manpower and as to whether or not the surreptitious taking of notes on the activities of Members on the floor is a questionable activity by the military. I have no further questions.

Mr. BECKWORTH. Thank you very much.

I do think it is well that you have done the work that you have, on that, Mr. Edwards.

Mr. EDWARDS. Thank you.

Mr. BECKWORTH. As I told you the other day.

Mr. Johansen.

Mr. JOHANSEN. Mr. Secretary, I noticed that you remarked several times that your reason for doing this and the alleged reason for the doing of this in the past is because the Navy wants to be responsive to the Congress.

If I may offer a suggestion, I think one way the Navy could be more responsive to the Congress would be to permit the Chief of Naval Operations to come up and testify before a committee of Congress as to his honest professional judgment and not be booted out in consequence thereof.

Now, if you want to be responsive to the needs of Congress, there is nothing we need more than to have top professional military men who are able to offer their judgment and their wisdom which the Congress may or may not accept.

I just want to record the fact that apropos of the dismissal of Admiral Anderson, or his nonreappointment, which is a repetition of the Admiral Denfield affair of Mr. Truman's day, that it raises the question of whether we can have effective civilian control over the military. Because effective civilian control goes not only to the President as the Commander in Chief but it goes to the Congress as the legislative body.

Mr. Secretary, how can we legislate wisely without having full and free and frank testimony from top Navy officials before Congress? Mr. FAY. Mr. Congressman, this is your assessment. I personally would not agree with your evaluation.

Mr. JOHANSEN. I am sure you would not.

Mr. FAY. I also feel this is beyond my prerogative to speak on this subject. I have very strong personal feelings on this, and they will remain such.

Mr. JOHANSEN. I will say to the gentleman I am not going to press him further. I realize he cannot speak on this subject. But some of us in the Congress have very strong feelings, and they are not personal. They are official as far as I am concerned.

Now, let me ask you this: On page 2 of your testimony you make reference, and I quote:

In November of 1961 we reached a temporary peak of 353,600 civilian employees. We plan to end this fiscal year at about 345,000-a total which will include over 2,000 temporary seasonal hires, principally science and engineering students employed during the summer months in our research activities.

What is the procedure followed by the Navy in seeking, screening— I mean for selection purposes-and employing there temporary seasonal hires?

Mr. FAY. Mr. Congressman, we have a demand for people for seasonal hire. We make this information available to the general public through such means as advertisement, and indicating to different universities that we are interested in a certain type of an individual.

Basically, in our student hire in the summer--I do not want to get away from the main issue but I think this is part of the main issue

we have around 600 summer employees in our laboratories and other activities in the Washington area, of which about two-thirds are students.

Our different bureaus and agencies have a need for these people with certain engineering capabilities. The man comes down or he sends in his application. We take a look at his application, based on his record, to see whether it is consistent with what we desire, consistent with the Civil Service Commission regulations. If this man meets the qualifications and is the best equipped and the best qualified for this particular position, he gets the job.

Mr. JOHANSEN. What proportion of these 2,000 are employed here in Washington would you say?

Mr. FAY. I really do not have that amount, but I would roughly, off the top of my head, maybe around 600 of them are employed in the Washington area.

Mr. JOHANSEN. Mr. Secretary, I want to ask you a very blunt question, and I do not want to put you on the spot, but I hope you will be able to give me a completely frank answer.

Is the White House or any member of the White House staff involved in any way, shape, or manner in this summer employment process?

Mr. FAY. I will say this, Mr. Congressman, that every single individual who is hired under our summer program of hiring is hired strictly on the basis of qualifications.

Mr. JOHANSEN. Well, Mr. Secretary, I regret to say you did not respond to my question. My question was: Does the White House or any member of the White House staff enter into this selection process in any way whatsoever?

Mr. FAY. There are people who are interested in the White House in having qualified people employed by the Government. There is a member on the White House staff who does submit qualified people to us for summer employment. If they are not qualified, they are not employed.

Mr. JOHANSEN. Who is that person?

Mr. FAY. Mrs. Dorothy Davies.

Mr. JOHANSEN. Yes, I have heard that name.

Mr. BECKWORTH. Will the gentleman yield for one question right there?

Mr. JOHANSEN. I will be glad to.

Mr. BECKWORTH. So far, up until this date, how many applications has Mrs. Davies sent down to the Navy?

Mr. FAY. This would be off the top of my head, but I would say we have probably received around 50 or 60 applications. Is that about right, Admiral?

Admiral LAWRENCE. I think so.

Mr. BECKWORTH. Of that number how many have you hired?

Mr. FAY. I think we have hired one. One or two possibly have been hired. But I would like to doublecheck that. It is around that ratio. Mr. JOHANSEN. I understand, of course, that you are saying-and I have every confidence in your statement-that you hire people on the basis of their qualifications. However, it is evident that there is the possibility of a substantial number of qualified persons being of one political party. Is that not possible?

98-338-63-pt. 2-2

Mr. FAY. It would be rather an unusual occurrence. I think that probably in both political parties we have equally qualified people, and I think it would probably fall out that way.

Mr. JOHANSEN. I am glad to have that in the record. I appreciate it very much.

But your testimony is that out of 50 or so there have only been 1 or 2 hired so far?

Mr. FAY. I believe that is it as of right now.

Mr. JOHANSEN. I cannot keep up with the shifts on this thing, but was it not my understanding that at the outset earlier this year there was an indication that all summer employment was to be routedapplications were to be routed-through this White House office or staff?

Mr. FAY. Mr. Congressman, my main responsibility is personnel, and I did not have that indication.

me

Mr. JOHANSEN. Evidently something happened which caused

Mr. FAY. I think there was a lot written in the paper about it. But, as you know, there is a lot written in the paper that is not always consistent with the facts.

Mr. JOHANSEN. As an old newspaperman, I think they have a pretty good record. Apparently there was enough in it that the Chairman of the Civil Service Commission took due note of it and rather cracked down on the proposals.

Is that not correct?

Mr. FAY. Well, it certainly is true he did. I would not say he cracked down. He more or less stated what the policy was, because we were coming into a period of summer hire.

Mr. JOHANSEN. In other words, he thought there was enough smoke in the stories that the "unreliable" press put out that he thought he had better take some recognition of it?

Mr. FAY. Mr. Congressman, could I clear the record? I did not say the "unreliable" press. I said that there are occasions when there appears in the press information which is not always consistent with the facts.

I would like to maintain a very good relationship with the press if we could.

Mr. JOHANSEN. I will be glad to yield to the chairman.

Mr. BECKWORTH. While we are on that 50 or 60, it has been indicated that one has been hired. What is the judgment of you gentlemen as to how many of the 50 or 60 ultimately will be hired?

Mr. FAY. That is a question which is very difficult to answer.

Mr. BECKWORTH. Well, give us a litle idea. Do you think that we are right about at the end of it, that that is about it?

Mr. FAY. No, I do not.

Mr. BECKWORTH. That is my point.

Mr. FAY. I think that we will continue to get applications.

Mr. BECKWORTH. Mr. Secretary, you ought to have some idea as to whether or not, out of 50, you are likely to hire 5 of them, 10 or, say, 15. Mr. FAY. The reason why it is difficult, Mr. Chairman, is that the hiring is done at the different bureau and agency levels. The determination of whether a man is qualified or not qualified is made by that level. And not until they have made the determination do I know.