Mr. BRADLEY of California. I would say you are completely in error, completely.

Mr. TOLLEFSON. Put it this way, when you went into the merchant marine what was the lowest rate?

Mr. McLANE. In what department?

Mr. TOLLEFSON. Well, say deckhand.

Mr. MCLANE. The lowest department is an ordinary seaman. Mr. TOLLEFSON. What was his pay?

Mr. McLANE. In the Army Transport Service?

Mr. TOLLEFSON. Yes.

Mr. McLANE. It was, I believe, $100 a month. The shipping industry, I believe at one time during the war, paid $87.50. I am saying this purely from recollection because I was not with a private line, I was with the Army Transport Service.

Mr. TOLLEFSON. Was that supplemented with any other income, bonuses or anything of that sort, that $100?

Mr. McLANE. While we were at sea and if we were in a port threatened by enemy attack, yes, it was supplemented.

Mr. TOLLEFSON. By how much?

Mr. McLANE. The overseas bonus, of course, was 100 percent, then there were various port bonuses, depending upon the theater of operations. I am not prepared to give you exact calculations on particular

areas.

Mr. TOLLEFSON. And when these seamen went to sea their pay was doubled, in other words?

Mr. MCLANE. Yes, that would be true.

Mr. TOLLEFSON. I think that is all, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. BRADLEY of California. Mr. Brophy?

Mr. McLANE. Excuse me, could I inject one remark in there? Mr. BRADLEY of California. You will have to ask Mr. Brophy, the questioning is with him.

Mr. BROPHY. Let him inject his remark, then I will question him. Mr. McLANE. That extra pay, that bonus arrangement would be applicable only in war zone areas, that is, in areas delineated by the proper authorities.

Mr. BROPHY. You stated before that men were not willing to go back into the merchant marine service again. Do you know any of the men who were in the merchant service in World War I and who were back in it again in World War II?

Mr. McLANE. Personally I know several and they have always felt that they didn't get the proper rights or recognition, the extent of which differed in their respective minds, but they still came back to serve their country.

My opinion is purely a personal one, sir. I don't claim that I am talking for thousands of merchant seamen as their official spokesman. I think that some of them would prefer to go into some other branch of the service where they could at least be recognized later on as veterans officially.

Mr. BROPHY. Wheny you referred to earning $50 a week as an ablebodied seaman aboard ship, there were some ablebodied seamen of the United States Navy on that same ship; how would their pay compare to yours?

Mr. McLANE. At that particular time?

Mr. BROPHY. Yes, sir, of the same rank, ablebodied seamen.

Mr. MCLANE. Well, I was not aware of any naval term of ablebodied seaman. My impression was that a chief boatswain's mate would be comparable to an ablebodied seaman.

Mr. BROPHY. You insult a man's intelligence to make that statement. That is all.

Mr. BRADLEY of California. Any other questions?

Mr. SEELY-BROWN. The only question I have is this: I am very much interested in what you said. Do you think there would be any objection, as regards yourself or any of the merchant mariners, to becoming an active part in the armed services when and if another war should come? In other words, do you think there would be any objection to being taken over lock, stock, and barrel as part of the armed services, under the same rules and regulations, pay, and so on?

Mr. MCLANE. In otherwords, do you think some of us would like the merchant service to be taken over?

Mr. SEELY-BROWN. I was wondering what your feeling as regards that would be if an emergency should arise?

Mr. MCLANE. Are you asking my personal opinion?

Mr. SEELY-BROWN. Yes; that is right.

Mr. McLANE. My personal opinion is that I feel that the Navy should have taken over the merchant marine at the start of the war but for reasons that we all know and they were very powerful onesthat was not possible. Some merchant marine men I have spoken with regarding this particular issue felt the same way.

I am still of the same opinion after the end of hostilities.

Mr. SEELY-BROWN. It would solve all the problems we have now?
Mr. MCLANE. It certainly would. I foresaw all these problems.

Mr. SEELY-BROWN. Thank you.

Mr. BRADLEY of California. Have you finished?

Mr. SEELY-BROWN. Yes, thank you, Captain.

Mr. BRADLEY of California. You made the statement there is a great deal of difference between discipline of the maritime service and the merchant marine. Tell us what you mean by that?

Mr. McLANE. I would very gladly do that, Mr. Chairman. The United States Maritime Service, which is a recognized branch of the Government, I believe, and the merchant marine, whether with the Army Transport Service or with a private industry, are two radically different things. In the United States Maritime Service it was run, as far as I know, on a strict naval pattern, in other words, even to the pay schedules. The only difference, of course, was that the Navy men invariably received greater pay in that particular service, that is, with longevity and when they were out on training ships, they received an additional pay for sea duty. I believe that is their term for it.

They were restricted very much the same as officers and men serving in the armed forces. There was such a thing as getting leave or not getting leave

Mr. BRADLEY of California. Yes; but we are not getting anywhere. On board a merchant ship where was the difference? I am not interested in the academies and places like that, or maritime stations. I am interested in ships. On board a merchant ship where was the difference between the Maritime Commission service and the merchant marine service?

Mr. McLANE. The Maritime service, as you know, Mr. Chairman, had several training vessels

Mr. BRADLEY of California. I am not interested in those. We are talking about merchant ships. Don't becloud the issue. Get right down to where we want to get, merchant ships. Where is the differ ence between those ships?

Mr. McLANE. Between the discipline?

Mr. BRADLEY of California. You made the statement in your testimony and led the committee to believe that there is a difference in Maritime service and merchant service on board ship. Now, I want to know where it is.

Mr. McLANE. I didn't specify, Mr. Chairman, aboard ship.

Mr. BRADLEY of California. We are only talking about aboard ship, we are not talking about Maritime Commission stations, you know that. We are talking about conditions at sea, wartime merchant seamen who went to sea. Let's stick to the issue. In other words, there is none so far as you know; that is a fact, isn't it?

Mr. McLANE. I think we understand each other, Mr. Chairman. Mr. BRADLEY of California. I think we understand each other per fectly, there is none. I am not trying to get after you, I want facts; I don't want wild theories which beg the issue.

Mr. McLANE. Mr. Chairman, may I say something else? I merely put in the service in the United States Maritime Service because of this public misconception. As I say, the disciplinary action was along a naval pattern and the pay schedule was approximately the same.

Mr. BRADLEY of California. I am going to arrive at that later. Now tell me where the discipline aboard ship was different in Maritime and merchant service. You spoke about the disciplinary action of the Maritime Commission. Where is it?

Mr. McLANE. The service aboard a Maritime training shipMr. BRADLEY of California. We are not speaking of Maritime train ing ships, we are speaking of merchant ships. This discussion doesn't pertain to Maritime training ships or Maritime training stations. You are asking for certain things, for benefits to wartime merchant seamen. We want to stick to the issues. If you don't know, say so, don't take our time.

Mr. MCLANE. Well, I was not quite aware of the extent of your question.

Mr. BRADLEY of California. Then do you know now? If you give me the answer.

do

Mr. McLANE. I would say briefly that the discipline aboard a merchant ship as I know of it during wartime was practically the same as during peacetime, except that in an area of attack you were under really Navy control.

Mr. BRADLEY of California. In what way?

Mr. McLANE. As far as the movement of your ship was concerned

Mr. BRADLEY of California. Seamen are not concerned in that and we are talking about merchant seamen. You constantly becloud the issues. It isn't a question of movement of ships. You have said "discipline, discipline aboard ship." Tell me the answer if you know it and if you don't, say so.

Mr. MCLANE. My statement had absolutely no reference at all to discipline aboard a merchant ship.

Mr. BRADLEY of California. I copied down here, you said, "The pat tern of naval discipline aboard ship"; the answer is you don't know.

All right, now, let's get down to this question. Where did you say you get the idea an able seaman is the same class as a chief boatswain's mate?

Mr. MCLANE. I said that purely from memory. I believe that Representative Bland had made such a comparison.

Mr. BRADLEY of California. You shouldn't make a statement unless you know something about it. How long would it take seaman to get to be an able seaman in the merchant marine?

Mr. McLANE. Approximately 3 years.

Mr. BRADLEY of California. How long would it take a chief boatswain's mate to get to be a chief boatswain's mate in the Navy? Mr. MCLANE. I don't know, sir.

Mr. BRADLEY of California. Probably 20 years, maybe less; it depends on whether there is a war or not. How many chief boatswain's mates would you find on an ordinary merchant ship, do you know that?

Mr. MCLANE. No, sir; offhand I don't know.

MR. BRADLEY of California. You will find one. I just want to bring out the absurdity of your statement. An able seaman on a merchant ship might be classed as a coxswain, certainly no higher. Mr. BROPHY. If he happened to be a top hand.

Mr. BRADLEY of California. Yes. He might be classed as a coxswain. Anybody else who has any different ideas about it would be fooling himself. The coxswain is a third-class petty officer, a squad leader in charge of a boat and he is just four grades below a chief boatswain's mate.

Why do you bring in the question of Army transports all the time in connection with merchant seamen? You know Army transports did not enjoy some of the benefits the merchant ships did, did they? Mr. MCLANE. I don't quite understand that.

Mr. BRADLEY of California. You continually refer to Army transports

Mr. McLANE. That is the service I am most familiar with.

Mr. BRADLEY of California. What connection has any Army transport normally with the merchant seaman question?

Mr. McLANE. I felt that inasmuch as they employed 35,000 merchant seamen, I thought that anything that pertained to the Army Transport Service would be interesting to the committee.

Mr. BRADLEY of California. I am trying to find out if it is. Did the Army transport personnel enjoy the various bonuses and all that which were paid to merchant seamen?

Mr. McLANE. I would say that essentially they did.

Mr. BRADLEY of California. Do you know?

Mr. MCLANE. When I was with the Army Transport Service we didn't get overtime pay.

Mr. BRADLEY of California. I asked a simple question and I would like an answer. Don't beat around the bush. Tasked you a simple question.

Mr. McLANE. It all depends

Mr. BRADLEY of California. Wait a minute, get the question, don't confuse the issues. I asked you a simple question. Do you know whether personnel on Army transports enjoyed the same bonus and pay they did on merchant ships? That is just a plain question. Mr. McLANE. I shall answer it this way, Mr. Chairman

Mr. BRADLEY of California. I want a clear answer, do you know or don't you know?

Mr. McLANE. I do know.

Mr. BRADLEY of California. Then answer.

Mr. MCLANE. It depends upon what period of the war you are talking about.

Mr. BRADLEY of California. Was there some period of the war they did not enjoy it and some period of the war when they did enjoy it?

Mr. McLANE. In one phase I can recall they didn't pay overtime, that was one of the benefits.

Mr. BRADLEY of California. You are a hard person to get to stick to questions. You try to confuse issues always and you are making a very poor impression on the committee in doing so.

Mr. MCLANE. I am very sorry, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. BRADLEY of California. We are too, we will say so frankly. I didn't mention overtime, overtime is a matter which is not a wartime measure. I asked the question about wartime bonuses. It is a perfectly clear question.

Mr. MCLANE. They did receive wartime bonuses.

Mr. BRADLEY of California. They did receive wartime banuses! Mr. McLANE. That is correct.

Mr. BRADLEY of California. That is the question I asked.

Mr. McLANE. I am sorry, I misconstrued it, I thought you were referring to other benefits.

Mr. BRADLEY of California. You should simply listen to the questions, my friend. That is the question I asked.

You remarked awhile ago that the principal thing a merchant seaman wanted was to be classified as a veteran, is that the answer!

Mr. McLANE. I said some merchant seamen would be satisfied with receiving recognition as veterans on an official status, I did not say that all of them would be.

Mr. BRADLEY of California. Then you went on to say they wanted hospitalization, education, and veterans' preference.

Mr. MCLANE. I said that others had ideas of extension of hospitalization, benefits, compensation benefits, depending upon each individual seaman's viewpoint.

Mr. BRADLEY of California. And you mentioned veterans' preference.

Mr. McLANE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BRADLEY of California. In other words, what is there that the merchant seamen do not want that is given under the regular GI bill of rights?

Mr. MCLANE. May I restate this question in my own mind?

Mr. BRADLEY of California. No, I asked the question: What is there that the merchant marine does not want? I am asking the questions. You are giving the answers. You are not asking me questions.

Mr. McLANE. I am afraid I can't answer that one because each individual seaman's viewpoint is different.

Mr. BRADLEY of California. Well, you don't know. You stated that when you were on board ship you got $50 a week. You compared that to the workingman ashore. Why do you compare to the workingman ashore rather than somebody at sea?

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