He stated he wanted to invoke it because of fear of reprisal. First, he has opened the entire matter to examination by this committee in complying with the terms of the subpena for the pictures, and I think we can very quickly get appropriate citations to support the fact that you no longer have the privilege. Secondly, the invoking of the fifth amendment is against selfincrimination. It is not available as a means of avoiding retribution. Mr. MILLER. I see. Mr. Moss. So I would ask the qeustion: Do you have the negatives? Mr. BROOKS. We have already asked him that question, Mr. Moss. We will continue the questioning on that line as soon as he finishes his statement. You go on and finish your statement, Mr. Miller, if you will. Mr. Moss. Mr. Chairman, I want to protest the statement Mr. BROOKS. Let the man make his statement, Mr. Moss. We have not finished talking to him about this. We will find out whether he has got the negatives or not. Mr. Moss. I want the record to reflect my protest. Mr. BROOKS. We understand your protest. I already asked him for the negatives. I am the one who brought it up. We will find out whether he has them. Go on with your statement now, Mr. Miller. We want you to consider very carefully what you are saying. Mr. MILLER. Certainly. Mr. BROOKS. I did not ask you for the negatives just to be talking. I want to know if you have them. We did not ask you to bring them to the committee. We asked you if you had them. It may be that the committee will need them. Certainly the FAA will want to take a look at them. This picture is not retouched but it has a portion of the face cut out and a little black card cut out and certainly the FAA in any real consideration of the problem is going to want to see a clear print, not one which has been edited in any fashion. So you might as well realize that. Now, as you make your answer, if you want to talk with your counsel, Mr. Lawrence, for a moment, you can. But I can assure you that we will want to see the negatives sooner or later. Mr. MILLER. To continue with my statement, I am under most extreme pressure. Mr. BROOKS. Sure. Mr. MILLER. My company has a policy and procedure manual which spells out that operational information is considered confidential by my company, and divulgence of this information to anyone outside the company is a pretty serious matter. I believe it mentions disciplinary action. Do not quote me correct on that. This is strictly from memory. But that policy procedures manual is available. And I am also under pressure I would not say "pressure," I do not like that word-I am obligated, because I am a member of the Flight Engineers International Association, TWA Chapter, under the constitution and bylaws of the TWA Chapter, Flight Engineers, I am obligated not to divulge or make public private proceedings of the union. Anyone guilty of this is subject to disciplinary action or dismissal from the union or fines. Mr. BROOKS. Mr. Miller, pardon me. Let me say in fairness to you that you understand that the committee is not, the subcommittee is not bound by some company regulations, and that at your request this morning I talked with the president of TWA who said quite fairly what is an admission of the facts as they should be, that TWA would not take any adverse or disciplinary action against any employee for telling the truth under subpena. He recognizes the subcommittee's power to request such testimony from you, and your obligation under the subpena to give it fairly and honestly. You have sworn to tell the truth, and you are not privileged to equivocate in this instance. I would suggest that you go right ahead and tell us whether or not you have the negatives and we will go on and proceed with the questioning on these pictures and determine whether they have any bearing on air safety. Mr. MILLER. Yes, sir. Mr. BROOKS. And this is a candid and fair statement of what I believe to be the facts in the matter, which the counsel on the subcommittee agree is the case. NOT SURE WHETHER NEGATIVES STILL EXIST Mr. MILLER. I understand the position and the duty I am bound to under the subpena. However, I would merely want to mention that I am under pressure or obligated in these two different ways. Just for the record I wanted to make that point. But, in regard to the negatives, I am not sure, regarding the negatives, whether they exist or not. Mr. BROOKS. Are you sure as to whether or not you have another set of these prints which have not been edited in any fashion Let me rephrase it. Do you have a set of these prints in which nothing whatsoever has been clipped out of them? Mr. MILLER. No, sir. This is the only set remaining. I became concerned after threats, and some time ago-I do not remember exactly when I destroyed one set of prints to keep them from falling into the wrong hands. In fact, some of the evidence was stolen from my garage and the hotel room. I thought it best that only one set of prints exist. I was under the impression that in the interests of air safety, that the overall picture is the important consideration here and that individuals are not really of importance. Mr. BROOKS. We do want to identify, of course, if these are actual pictures of commercial airliners, scheduled commercial airliners, in flight. You understand that you cannot have any misunderstanding about that. Mr. MILLER. Certainly. I will testify Mr. BROOKS. And it has got to be very clear, because, otherwise, it is an unfair operation if you cannot establish clearly that these were in flight. They have absolutely no bearing if they were taken in a simulator, you know. They can sleep or do anything they want to in a simulator. Mr. MILLER. I will answer questions regarding the authenticity. Mr. BROOKS. If you can identify them, I would say one further thing. Do you have the negatives in your possession? Mr. MILLER. No, I do not. Mr. BROOKS. Do you know where they are located? Mr. MILLER. No, I am not sure. Mr. BROOKS. Do you think you can secure the negatives to these pictures? Mr. Moss. Mr. Chairman, again may I make a point? Mr. BROOKS. Mr. Moss? Mr. Moss. I think that Mr. Miller is entitled to the very best counsel possible. But I think counsel is familiar with the rules of the House. He is there to advise on constitutional questions and not to prepare written responses as a guide to the witness in telling this committee candidly, of his own knowledge, the facts that the committee seeks to develop for the record. Mr. BROOKS. I think it is perfectly obvious that if you desire to talk with your counsel, you might talk with him anytime, but give us clear-cut and honest answers. You are sworn and if the counsel is going to testify, we will get him sworn. Mr. MILLER. I appreciate Congressman Moss' enlightenment on the fifth amendment. I was not completely aware that it only involved a criminal nature. MILLER DECIDES NOT TO TAKE FIFTH AMENDMENT Mr. BROOKS. And you do not wish to take the fifth amendment? Mr. MILLER. No. Mr. BROOKS. Now, in reply to the last question, do you think you can secure a set of the negatives or the negatives to these pictures? You have said you did not have them in your possession, but you were not sure where they were. Can you get a set of them, get the set? Mr. MILLER. May I have a moment to talk to my counsel? Mr. BROOKS. Yes, go ahead. All right, Mr. Miller? Mr. MILLER. Would you please read that question back regarding the negatives, please? (The question was read as requested.) Mr. MILLER. I wish to say that I was under the impression that this committee did not wish to crucify any individual persons or particular persons, pilots or flight engineers, and some time ago Mr. BROOKS. I will clarify that for you and say that they do not. They are not planning to and certainly they will not. All I want is to know whether or not you can get a set of those negatives. Mr. MILLER. No. MILLER DESTROYED NEGATIVES I, in fear of recriminations, in fear of my life and other considerations, I destroyed the negative. Mr. BROOKS. You have destroyed the negatives? Mr. MILLER. They do not exist. Mr. BROOKS. How were they destroyed? Mr. BROOKS. Who burned them? Mr. MILLER. I did, sir. Mr. BROOKS. All of the negatives to these? Mr. MILLER. I was scared. Mr. BROOKS. And this is the only set of prints that is left? Mr. MILLER. Yes. However, I think I can fully prove to you that they are not "rigged." They are fully factual, and in regard to your statement about the simulator, sir Mr. BROOKS. Yes. You understand it to be a natural question of people looking at them? Mr. MILLER. That is right. Mr. BROOKS. Where did you take them? Mr. MILLER. That is right. Mr. BROOKS. How are you going to prove that you took them there? ALL PHOTOS, BUT ONE, TAKEN ON SCHEDULED FLIGHTS Mr. MILLER. I will state that every picture except the last one, I believe the last picture is an exhibit, and it definitely shows the airplane on the ground, that one picture, and I will pick it out, sir. All the rest of the pictures are taken on scheduled flights. Mr. BROOKS. But before you go into that, we will get to the last picture; when did you burn these negatives? Counselor Mr. MILLER. I am not sure of just the exact date. Mr. BROOKS. If you are going to write a lot more notes, you are going to get sworn, and you will get to testify. We are glad to have you here, and we will welcome your contribution. If you have anything to say, we will appreciate Mr. Miller asking you about it, but we do not need you to be volunteering answers, you understand clearly? Mr. LAWRENCE. Mr. Chairman? Mr. BROOKS. Yes, Mr. Ivan Lawrence, will you please stand, and we will swear you as a witness in case you have anything to say. Will you raise your right hand and be sworn? Do you swear the testimony that you are about to give before this subcommittee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? Mr. LAWRENCE. Yes, sir; I sure do. Mr. BROOKS. Be seated. We are glad to have you, and we will ask you later if there is anything you might add to help us in this matter. In the meantime, please let your client have an opportunity to answer, or if you want to talk with him, we will just stop. Mr. LAWRENCE. Mr. Chairman, might I ask a question, please, sir? Mr. BROOKS. Yes, of course. Mr. LAWRENCE. From the remarks which Mr. Moss made a few moments ago in which he indicated in so many words that he felt I, as counsel for Mr. Miller, should stop taking notes and talking to my client to give him guidance Mr. BROOKS. Do not infer that Mr. LAWRENCE. Unless I misunderstood Mr. BROOKS. Pardon me? Mr. LAWRENCE. I must have misunderstood. Mr. BROOKS. You certainly did misunderstand. Certainly no member of this subcommittee would object to your taking all the notes that you want and conferring with your client. But when he is here testifying, you are here to advise with him at his request, and we do not recommend that you interrupt him and give him an answer every time, but let him tell what is the truth. Mr. LAWRENCE. Yes, sir. Mr. BROOKS. Since he is really the man who is better informed on this. Mr. LAWRENCE. Yes. Mr. BROOKS. We practice law, too, and I would like for lawyers to have a job. Mr. Moss. I want to make it clear my statement was while I felt Mr. Miller was entitled to the best advice possible-that under the rules of this House-now bear in mind that we are willing to go beyond the rules here-but under the rules of this House your role is limited to advising on constitutional questions. Mr. LAWRENCE. Yes, sir. Mr. Moss. My objection went to the fact, not that you were taking notes, but that you were writing the answers for Mr. Miller. Mr. Miller is supposed to be testifying as to his own knowledge, not your knowledge. Mr. LAWRENCE. Yes, sir. Mr. Moss. But his. Mr. LAWRENCE. Yes, sir. Well, sir Mr. BROOKS. Now, back to Mr. Miller. Pardon me. When did you burn them? I did not quite get the answer on that. When did you burn these negatives, sir? Mr. MILLER. I am not sure of the particular date. Mr. BROOKS. A month ago, 2 months, a year? Mr. MILLER. Oh, no, no. It was more than a year ago. Mr. BROOKS. More than a year ago? Mr. MILLER. Yes. I could not say exactly when. Mr. BROOKS. Who was present when they were burned? Mr. MILLER. No one. I wanted to obligate Mr. BROOKS. Where did you burn them? Mr. MILLER. In my backyard, in an open trash barrel in the backyard. Mr. BROOKS. Now, one thing I would like to say is: Did you take all of these pictures that you submitted, yourself? 89028-62-pt. 7-18 |