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of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. corlingly, it is recommended that the prohibition be modified by escepting therefrom coinnunication of such data relating to design and fabrication of atomic weapons as the President determines to be essential for accomplishment of the objectives of section 144 (b).

Chairman Col... It just seems as though every time we in Government come to a knotty problem that we cannot write down in words, we say we will let the President decide. And in this field the Congress is hesitant to open the door wide to the discretion of one person. I am not challenging the integrity or the discretion of the individual. But it does seem we can write into the law words that would describe and make possible the thing that you want to be done. We thought we were doing it when we said you can tell them about the weauons so far as how it looks. Why is it necessary for them to know what it is on the inside?

Mr. QUARLES. It is not necessary for them to know what it is on the inside, and we would not propose in any even to tell them what it it is on the inside. We do find though, sir, that if you say the three words “size, weight, and shape”-and those are the only external characteristics of the weapon which we may transmit to our alliesyou have said things that are too restrictive to be practical and that do not ineet the stated requiremens of he Joint Chiefs of Staff.

Chairman COLE. By that then, your interpretation then is that you could not tell them there is a hook on the upper side of the case, if that is the fact?

Mr. QUARLES. There might well be.

Chairman COLE. Or that there is a ring 3 inches in diameter on the outside of the case toward the tail. You mean you could not tell them that?

Mr. Quarles. I mean that there are things like thatand I think that is what you mean, sir--that it is necessary to tell them about the external characteristics of such weapons, that size, weight, and shape do not literally embrace.

Chairman COLE. Diy understanding of our intent in using this expression is that you can tell them anything you want them to know about how the thing looks on the outside, how many hooks, gadgets, or whatever it may be, but nothing about the inside

Mr. QCARLES. If I may construe your word “looks” broadly enough and how it behaves on the outside, then you and I are talking about exactly the same thing, because we are only talking about the external characteristics of these things that are militarily important.

Chairman COLE. You suggested the word right there. Why cannot we put in "external characteristics" along with "size, weight, and shape”! Would not that meet your purpose ?

Dir. Quarles. I believe it would, sir, although I would like to study the word a bit more closely.

Representative DURHAM. Do you not think you could give them information under this provision as to how to detonate the weapon!

Mr. QUJRLES. No, I do not think I could give them information as to how to detonate the weapon under this provision.

Mr. DURHAM. You do not think so?
Mr. QUARLFs. That would be my judgment; yes, sir.
Senator PASTORE. Would it help any-I am merely thinking out

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loud and I do not know what repercussions my suggestion might have--if starting with line 17:

Data relating to the design or fabrication of atomic weapons, except with regard to the external size, weigbt, and shape or the proper utilization thereol.

In other words, is not the thing discussed here, that this language might not be sufficient to give you the effective utilization that you want to make!

Mr. QUARLES. That is exactly right

Senator PASTORE. Now, if you edit the words in there “for the proper utilization thereof," would not that cure your objection without getting into this matter of fabrication and design!

Mr. QUARLES. If you said "with regard to the external characteristics or qualities" and left out the three specific external characteristics--the size, weight, and shape-or use those merely as illustrations, then I think we are getting at our point; yes, sir.

Representative DURHAM. Let me pursue this a little further. Chairman COLE. We are not going to settle anything right now.

Representative Durham. See if you can answer my question categorically. I think it is important. Do you not think the word Tutilization" would cover the question I asked you in regard to definition !

Mr. QUARLES. It might very well do so, but I do not understand that 144 (b) gives us the right to transfer to allies utilization information that is restricted data.

Representative DURHAM. You do not think that does that!

Mr. QUARLES. I would have to read it perhaps more closely, but that is my understanding.

Representative DURHAY. All right. Perhaps I am wrong.
Chairman Cole. 143.

Mr. QUARLES. Passing now to section 143, which is on page 52, “Department of Defense Participation.”

The last proviso of this section would require the Secretary of Defense to make a finding that the Department of Defense security procedures and standards are adequate and in reasonable conformity to the standards established by the Atomic Energy Commission. This section adds nothing to the existing statutory responsibilities of the Secretary of Defense for the security of military secrets and in our recommendation should be deleted.

Chairman COLE. You say it adds nothing. I assume by that you mean that that is what the Secretary of Defense is already doing, and if he is already doing it, then pray tell me what harm is there to put in the law that he shall continue to do it!

Mr. QUARLES. The law does not say he shall continue to do it; it says he shall find he is doing it. And it seems to us that this is expressing the thing in a way that is not appropriate, nor does it accomplish a useful purpose in the law.

Chairman COLE. What words do you suggest we use instead of "finding”!

Mr. QUARLES. My suggestion, sir, is that you omit the phrase altogether.

Chairman COLE. You said that before. I realize that.

Mr. QUAKLES. I have no suggestion of a way to say this thought in a better way.

This is a hypothetic

Not just


(100 Cong. Rec. A5316, 45331-45332) A ADJ ren barra lo public bodies and co tunity to study the problem of security

Ing effort and their preparedness in lbo crative in terms of its statutory foundation, Its

held of atomic weapons. Secretary McKay's withdraka) of bla Deprocedural structure, and its effective

once a unique and limited weapon for us rioient's objections * private company's ness in practice.

onls under conditions of very high and tition to care the Soake River on the Ore

The joint committee has & Subcom.

very narrow policy determinations de -Idaho Border supported by consider millee on Security. The gentleman

to scarcity-- is now a central item et ble logic and legal precedent in favor of from Ohio (Mr. JENKINS) and the gentle

ordnance in the total complex of weapo ibe Federal Power Commission's preemd. Lence in that Beld.

man from California (Mr. HOLIFTELD) ons systems
both serve on this subcommittee. It has

Let me glve you an example of shy
Toe Adoninistration's contract policy In
The Pacoc Northwest Is partially Justided, at been my bonor and privilege to serve as

the changes proposed in H. R 9757 2:4 least, by the peculiar circunstances of power chairman of this subcommittee. Sen so important production, distribution, and consumption ator PASTORT and Senator CONDOK are the

case, of course, but not necessarily se out tbere. And the meaning and implicaotber members. We have given the

Put yourself in the position of an or. 11035 of the so-called partnership plan for security aspects of this bill the closest

nance technician employed by a Departa Lydropower projects are beltber easy to possible study. Every line has been

ment of Defense contractor developing understand Dor to express, pro or con la carefully gone over with the experts who

a guided missile. One of the speciáca. elc pie teren have direct responsibilities in the feld

tions, set up by the Defense Departa The point is that although the Elser.Surer of security.

ment, is that the miss he must be abce to sdralnistration is politically vulnerable un the power Issue, it is apparently trying

More important than our study of the carry an atomic warhead. Tecover from a bad start And it has steppe. bill, or at least of basic importance in Can you po direct to the nucley. back to a middle-of-the-road position on terms of our competence to judge this weapon designers, who are employees Me explosive questions enough to protect bul, is the continuing review and close

of the Commission's contractors in the Itselt against the crippling charge of "give. scrutiny given to the practice of security

weapons feid?

They have & so-called avay." An example of this is in the accel.

since the McMahon Act went into effect. top-secret clearance and so do you Yog e:ated engineering studies to provide somo

I have not served on the joint comunit need to know about the shape and se Governmeot dana construction on the woot Soute River below the bilterly fought-over

tee during this entire period, but I have and weight distribution of the ducirap

never ceased to give the matter my warhead which your missile is to carry. Hells Canson site, closest attention.

The present lav says you cannot toit Then along comes this clumsy efort to clamp down On any expansion of the IVA

Chapter 12 of H. R. 9757, composed of to the Commission's contractor uning We do not agree with the adverse condott. sin sections, modernizes the security you have been Investigated by the YBI tlos in the President's now-famous epithet provisions of the existing act, passed in or the Civil Service Comin'sslon und for the TVA M&D example of "creeping 1946 and reflecting the attitudes of that cleared by the Commission socials," und . *monstrosity. But ns period as to the exclusiveness of Amer. cleared by the Department of Defense suredly the President entitled to hla

ica's position in the field of atomic even though you may have been investi. opinion and to bis proposal for « "study

energy. of TVA's future," na be indicated would be



times And Dade in the future. But the Milwaukee

Chapter 18, dealing with enforcement, by every personnel-security procedure Journal, commenting on the AEC - TVA deal,

makes more practical and realistic the known to the Department of Defense asked two questions which were mude to provisions for effectively maintaining ad You nay have handled the most send. order for Mr. LANCO and other critics of the herence to the security provisions of the tive Information in the Nation's bole administration's power policy:

bill, and establishes a better legal foun defense setup. for years but, unless you "Isn't the range order telling AFC to dation for enforcing the security meas have also been through the pinte negotiate with the private combine pre ures

channels of clearance established by LA Judging TVA's place in the future? And

As a matter of fact, the objectives of for AEC contractors, you cannot Luk lo esen u one accepted tbe idea of TVA critia

making practical and realistic the secu your fellow weapons expert in the AEC that the project is creeping socialism' and 'monstrosity. Isn't the new proposal merely

rity provisions of the act characterize setup. HR. 9757 clears this matter up 'creating another 'monstrosity' supported by

every change we have made from exist The Commission's contract employer can the 'creeplog socialism' of full subsidyra Ing law.

talk to you upon receipt and notification I would like to recall to your minds, to your employer of the Department of

since I am sure my colleagues have cone Defense certibcation as to your cleas. A5331 over the report accompanying this bill

ance. Report No. 2181--the discussion of this

As matters stand now, this type of loall - important security problem appear formation could be given to you only ing on page 23 of the report

through a third party ocially cleared Security Provisions of Alomic Energy Act I want to touch briefly on each section

by both of the contracting agencies The of this chapter, but before doing so, I

awkwardness and waste in such a proce. SPEECH would like to summarize the security

dure is obvious, for the duplication of accomplishments of this bill. I say "acof

investigations and clearance scuons complishments" advisedly, not only be.

costly and unnecessary. HON. JAMES T. PATTERSON cause of the very merit of the proposed

The safeguards surrounding the 1. OP CONNECTICUT language but also because of the im.

change of information with our alles ant provement effected in the Commission's IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

of vital importance. But they are itsecurity operations. The new language

alistic. As matters stand now, Genen Friday, July 23, 1956 will give the Commission needed fcd

Guenther, when wearing his hat u The House in Committee of the whole billty in specific Delds, and assures the

Commander of Allied Forces in Europe, House on the State of the Union and under American people that the expansion of Cannot tell his British chief of fighter cousiduation the bil (1 R 9757) to ardend the whole business of atomic energy-o

aircraft--assuming he has & British chief tbe Abwic Energy Act of 1946, namended. both domestic and international AS

directing fighter-aircraft operationsMr. PATTERSON. Mr. Chairman, I pects can be carried out with adequate

General Gruenther cannot even tell ! sant to discuss the securits provisions of protection for the securits interests of

the basic weapon effects needed in the H. P. 9757. the United States.

employment of the types of afcalo A major accomplishment of HR 9757 bombs which fighter aircraft can carry.

is to clear up & situation which has When the general put on his hat es co. A5332 plagued both the Cominsson and all of

mander of the American forces, be ca the military services since the passage of talk Irecly to his American slet but I believe my colleagues in the House the act. We have made several attempts the things the beld-operations 1 Aye familiar with my interest in the broad in the past to cure this problem by legis madders need to know. ned of security in all its varied espects. lation Nearly 8 years of experience

The proposed bin 11 assist the .XATO My experience in the Government underBe these changes. The problem

commander in this regard. It permis senice, in the military service, and in my bas been acute during the last 4, as the

the transmission under rigid sales ads senice on the Joint Coinmittee on milltary services have intershocd and

of the information required for the d. Atomic Enerry has given me an oppor expanded their competence, their train

tary employment of the scapon. Il te


(100 Coog. Rec. 15332-4A5333, A536-2-A5743, A5345-A5346) cifically forbids, since there is no need rity is attained only if the areas of in stewardship in respect to matters irrelevant for transmission of such information, all for ination requiring protection are held

to the maion of the Councleston." data about the design and manufacture down to include only that information

The tnud Anic Commissioner. Thomas of the weapon and the nuclear materials which positively needs protection.

E Murray, wad u tbe AEC enters loto a cog.

tract with the private power sspdicate "we involved.

HR 9757 constitutes an unequivocal

vould not carcel, at least at the TDOThe bill provides the same flexibility in directive to the Commission to maintain

ment... ADY TVA contracts but would connection with the operations of our

continuous review of an classined inlor de nezolating for bulk of power that is oun forces. It permits the removal, as

mation and to declassify and publish not beeded by our present or projectes pro the Commission and the military may

scientific and technical data which can duction facilities. ... The Atomic Energy agree, the removal from the statutory be published without undue risk to the

Comission would be used as #vehicle to restraints of restricted data of that in. common defense and security.

supply the expanding needs of the Memphis

ves formation relating to the size, welcht, The bill, of course, continues, and I

The Commissioner Murras added: "Since shape, and ballistic characteristics of believe improves, the policy declarations

our propia is not advanced by these nego atomic weapons and provides for the con

with respect to the Commission's obliga tations and the subsequent administration tinuing protection of such data under tions to control of Information in such of this 25.year contract, I do not believe military security regulations. Just as the

minner as to assure the common de that it is des'sable for the Atomic Energy restricted data security requirements fense and security, and with respect to

Commission to perform function that an. provide for one kind of protection of the disse nination of technical informa

other agency of Government could perbape research and deselopment and manufac tion est ntial to scientinc and industrial

more logically perform."

We stand with those three Atomic Com. turing operations, the military security progress and public understanding and

missionera. We believe thes were right regulations provide protection of another to expand and enlarge the Nation's res

when they took their stand against the idea kind to meet the differing conditions of ervoir of scientific knowledge available

of AEC becoming power broker for the milltary operations. Heretofore, we have to all our teachers and research workers. TVA tried to impose the Commission's status

We believe they are still right.

bole tory security standards on information

The country--indeed, the

free of military operations with respect to A5312

world-depends upon our atomde might Information primarily of importance to the military. Needless to say, both the Commission and the Department of De

AEC as Power Broker

A5343 fense are very anxious to have this matter cleared up. We are assured that the

EXTENSION OF REMARKS language in section 142 will do this.


The Atomic Energy Commission admin. Should it be necessary for me to speak

Isters our atomic program. later in more detail on these sections of


It should not be saddled with extraneous this bill which deal with the operations


duties and responsibilities which have no of the security system, I will do so, but in

relation whatever with its primary task, IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

To force these duties and responsibilities order to expedite the business before the House, I suggest you first check the re

Friday, July 23, 1954

upon the AEC is, in our opiplon, dangerous

to our national de ense. port. I believe you will find it very com

Mr. PRICE Mr. Speaker, under plete on this point,

leave to extend my remarks, I include an The last point I will touch on is the editorial from the Washington Daily authority given to the Commission to News of July 13. It is presumed that this

A5345 make a determination as to the degree of editorial not only expresses the opinion sensitivity of various types of restricted

of the Dally News but of all other news data. Again, an example might help.

papers in the Scripps-Howard chain: Amending Atomic Energy Act of 1946, During the building of one of the faseous diffusion plants, there comes a


as Amended stage when enough equipment is on the Protests against the President ordering the floor that a competent engineer or sci United States Atomic Energy Commission to

SPEECH entist in the field of isotope separation

algo a 25-year contract with private power

oyndicate to buy electricity for the Tennesby gaseous dicusion could gain some see Valley Authority have now provoked the

HON. CARL HINSHAW knowledge of the output of such a plant.

administration, and some of its Democratic That is, he could see the size of the

OF CALIFORNIA and Republican friends, to hurry to Mr. motors and compressors and examine Elsenboser's defense.

IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES the layout of the plant to get some idea We still think it is wrong for the Presi

Friday, July 23, 1954 of the volume of now of the gases. Of dent to use the AEC 1o this fashion ms

The Xouse in Comonlttee of the whole course, he would have it for only the one power broker for another agency which is itself the biggest Integrated power opera

House on the State of tbe Unloo bad under bay, or wing, of the plant. Now, under tor in the world.

consideration the bill (HR. 9757) Amend the present law, the expert elders who

And those who so loudly try to defend or

the Atomic Energy Act of 1946, as amended have to put this vast system together, explalo the President's error in Case

Mr. HINSHAW. Mr. Chairman, I but who do not see any plans, specifica. base not yet got to the heart of the issue. tioas, production data, nor do they get The beart of the issue is that a reajority of

move to strike out the last kord for the anywhere near nuclear materials, and the United States Atomic Energy Commiswho work under the closest possible and

alon-3 Corumlusioners out SW against
the contract the President wants signed.

Very vital technical supervision and di-

Commissioner Henry D. Smyth and EuTection--these people have to go through

gene M. Zuckert, then one of the AEC Com. the une security procedure as the top

maloners, wrote to the Budget Bureau last solentists who design the weapons them April 10. Among other things they said:

purpose of inquiring from my friend, the cliesThe cost in line and dollars is "Under this proposal the Atomic Energy

distinguished constitutional la syer the Commission vould be used as a vebicle for

Euntleman from Pennsylvania (Mr. GRAobvious the supply of 600.000 kilowatts of power lo

HAM) what his opinion is of this situathe Memphls Area. ... The propoerd ac

tion. A5333

ton involves the AEC in a matter remote Mr. GRAHAM. Mr. Chairman, I from la responsibilities. ... The pres have a very distinct recollection of the ent propos1 would create a situation where time a number of years ago. 7 or 8 years

by the AFC would be contracting for power I want to assure my colleagues of the

ago, when Hon. Fritz Lanham, chair. not one watt which would be used puncy and etectiveness of the pro

man of the Committee on Patents, conin connectico with the Comeniulon proective features of the bill. But there

suited with us on the Committee on the duction activities. The creation of such . 's one more Item of major importance. contractus! rela:100ahip would place upon

Judiciary on this subject and Hon. HatThe Joint coinmittee has long been of the Commission & continulog responsibility

ton Sumners chairman of my comnltice, 'ye opinion that the most effective sou during the 25-5en me of the contract for assigned me as one of those to go into




(100 Co:&. Rec. A5346-A5347) the matter. I may say that I am AS confess to being dull, but if this can

what the limitations are or where the Ortly convinced as I am talking to you possibly be explained to me in terns and

controls rest. This is an example of te at this point that the language of the language I can understand, I hope that

great weakness, As I see it, or this tul bill is unconstitutional. And you cannot some member of the comittee will do so.

To carry it out as the centleman inberts compromise with the question of con I will gladly yield to any member of the

to carry out the provisions of the bid is stitutionality. In my Judgment, and in comittee who may desire to explain this one thing but it is not ught enough to my burnble opinion, the amendment of language. Now if this were not such a

guarantee that will be done, and Sered by the gentleman from New York scrious matter, I would think this kind

we and section 162, It says point blank absolutely covers the situation and is of language to be amusing. But, this is

that the President can walve the key ad amendment which should be adopted 8 serious matter--perhaps, the most

requirements, as to contracts I be sar's by the committee. serious piece of legislation we have con

to do so. sidered this year.. I do hope some merg

The CHAIRMAN. The Ume of use ber of the committee, and I will be delighted to yield, will rive me an explana

gentleman from Mississippi has explica tion which I will be able to understand Amending Atomic Energy Act of 1946,

because I cannot understand even what
as Amended
you have in the report

Mr. COLE of New York. Mr. Chair.

inan, if the gentleman will yield, I shall

undertake to give him an answer. I am

sure he will be able to understand it, Amending Atomic Energy Act of 1948, HON. JOAN BELL WILLIAMS but I am not so sure it will be acceptable


lo him. The gentleman referred to the IN THE HOUSE OP REPRESENTATIVES statement in the committee report with

Friday, July 23, 1954

respect to definitions in which it is said

that those portions of the definitions The House la Committee of the whole which require substantive action have

HON. BROOKS HAYS House on the State of the Union bud under in most cases been separated from the

OF ARKANSAS consideration the bill (H. R. 9757) to Amend the Atomic Energy Act of 1946, MS Dended definition and been put into appropirate

IN THE BOUSE OP REPRESENTATIVE sections of the bill That has to do with Mr. WILLIAMS of Mississippt. Mr. portions of existing law where words are

Friday, July 23, 1954 Chairman, I move to strike out the last

denned. Those are now brought for The House lo Comunittee of the whole word.

ward loto this single section under the House on the State of the Union ad un cor Mr. Chairman, a few minutes ago, the title "Definitions" so that all of the er.

coneideration the bill (H. R. 6757) to ar el 4 gentleman from Texas (Mr. Dies) in pressions used frequently in the latter

the Acornic Enercy Act of 1946, 14 adeo terrupted the speech of the gentleman portions of the bill, which might have a M. HAYS of Arkansas Mr. Cal. from Pennsylvania (Mr. VAN ZANDT) to variety of interpretations, are defined in man, I move lo strike out the last word Inquire as to the meaning of the lan this section under the heading "Defini

Mr. Chairman, I would like to addres guage contained in lines 11 to 15 on page tions." With respect to the language this inquiry to the gentleman from Ne 5, under the title of "Deanitions.This used in the opening part of section 11, York, the author of the substitute, 13 language is as follows: the effort there was to declare a direc

It his purpose to leave to the President The latent of Congress in the definitions tion to whoever it might be who would be

the power in the atomic-energy Geld As given in this section shall be construed called upon to interpret these words

that be exercises in other areas? from the words or phrases used to the de. which have a special meaning, at a later nitions rather than from tbe choice of words

Mr. JAVITS. Mr. Chairman, the time, lo look to the definition itself in or phrases de ned interpreting the meaning of the word

gentleman is exactly right, subject to the

constitutional limitations with respect to The Beatleman from Texas rather than the word which was selected

treaties and international agreement promised that he would have an explana. to be defined. Now to me that is pertion of this later. I had hoped that he fectly clear. It may not be to the

Mr. HAYS of Arkansas I listernd would take the time himsell when we gentleman, but it is perfectly clear to

very carefully to what the gentleman reached this point in the bill, but ap

from New York, the chairman of the me. parently he is not on the door at the Mr. WILLIAMS of Mississippi. I do

committee, had to say in general debate moment. Being interested, also, in get

and I sensed in his commeat on the Appreciate that because it is just as ting an explanation of that language, I clear as mud to me.

President's power that he shares the ver have requested this time in the bope It

that the President's poser should not be

Mr. WHITTEN. Mr. Chairman, will may be clarined.

circumscribed As a matter of fact the gentleman yield? I looked in the report to see if it ex

there is little difference between us on

Mr. WILLIAMS of Mississippi. I plains that rather ambiguous language,

this principle. Al the thoughts that yield and the only thing I found in the report

have been expressed scem to converse at which has to do with that particular

Mr. WHITTEN. I would like to make Jeast at this point, that we would be section or that wording reads as follows:

the comment, if I may that my good cafer to preserve the President's const. Those portion of the deonitions which

friend, the chairman of the committee, tutional power. Now, that is not p's. require substantive action bave. In most

whom we all admire and respect, has tudinous in the present world situation Coen, been reparated from the denilions

demonstrated here the very great need I agree with the gentleman regard. and have been put into the appropiate mec

the Atomic Energy Commission are co the President's position. His address lo Uop of the bill.

ing to have for him to be around on

the newspaper editors and later the adMr. Chairman, I lay do claim to any

many of the sections of this bill in order dress to the United Nations Assembly great wisdon or intelligence; in fact, I

to explaln what is intended. In many Inspired millions throug bout the scrid of the sections, it is questionable as to And, the gentleman knows my atulude

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